maggie2: (Default)
[personal profile] maggie2
The last few days have been depressing, haven't they?  I feel the need to ramble a bit.

I like the comics.  I think they have a shot at being really great.  Yet when I read Barb's post on the preview pages for #37, and especially the comments, I feel sad.  Not because people disagree with me.  Not because I feel like my own position is being slighted.  But because people I respect, admire and even care about seem wounded by the comics.  And I wonder if every time I write about them it's rubbing salt in wounds.  I don't know what to do with that.  I'm enjoying the note project.  But my ongoing engagement with the fandom is because I think the comics are interesting to think about, and they are what I most want to write about. 

Obviously people can just not read my stuff.  It's just the parting of the ways, that seems sad.  And the feeling that some people might carry on reading my posts even if it makes them unhappy. 

On the Spuffy.  I am first and foremost a Spike fan.  That puts me in a different spot.  In principle, Spike could get trashed the way Angel has been thoroughly trashed.  But I rather more suspect that Spike is playing a role in the comics similar to Faith.  Faith is there as a contrast case for Buffy. Spike is there as a contrast case for Angel.  That decenters Spike some -- or would if that's all we get.  But Spike's story is actually done.  He's died the big glorious death.  I could certainly enjoy and value a story going forward about him coming into his own.  I'd love to see him get a big loving happy ending with someone.  But I don't need that.  He's made his big life choice, and we've seen enough to know that it's real.  Whatever else we get is nice, but I don't need something.  Ergo, I can kick back and enjoy him flying in on his bug ship; sitting around on his bed in white socks; and being quintessentially Spike with his cork example (repeated for Xander's benefit!). 

I'm grateful that he's not coming in all weepy about the Bangel.  I don't mind him dissing Buffy for her lack of education.  She chose Captain Hammer over him and if he wants to get in his digs, I don't have a problem with it.  She's leveled a lot of low blows on him over the years.  And she's been very harsh when he needed a kick in the pants (Get it Done).  I've learned to appreciate what she was doing there.  He's doing the same for her here.  She does need a kick in the pants.

Buffy's character has been put into a very dark light.  I actively like this.  Buffy has always been a little bit self-righteous.  The next step in her story had to be the place where her moral certainty gets battered.  I doubt we leave it here; she'll build back up, and will be a richer character for the journey.   Is it OOC that Buffy has fallen in the manner we see her fall here?  I'll ponder that a bit more below.  But the fact of her fall isn't a problem for me.

I think it's very interesting to see Spike and Buffy together when he's the one with the moral high ground.  From the moment we had the BtBR panel, I've wondered how that would play.  A lot of people assume Spike would be all pro-Buffy no matter what.  I hoped he wouldn't.  I like the way he's handling it here.  He's calling her on what she needs to be called on, but in a way that firmly maintains the connection between them.  The reason I count this as a very positive development in Spuffy is because the ground has shifted in a way that is interesting, and because the aura of old marrieds is so overwhelming.   Even if it's only friendship, these two have come such a phenomenal distance together. 

Do I need more?  Do I need UST or sex or hearts and flowers?  I'd like it, to be sure.  But I think there's something right to the thought that any S/B love relationship really needs Buffy's Bangel issues to be knocked out first.  Were they not, Spike would be re-running his relationship with Dru -- having 'epic' love with a woman for whom he's the second choice.  Buffy needs to have Angel and have it not work before she could get to a real Spuffy relationship that would make me happy.  The comics have created space for that -- since Joss has taken a wrecking ball to Bangel.   I don't think we'll enter into that space -- or at least not any time soon.  But we're going to have real friendship, I think.  Maybe even with benefits.   (The scene is in the bedroom; Georges has said shirtless Spike; neutral readers are catching a whiff of something; Georges has told the Bangels to be very afraid specifically about the Spuffy; it's not impossible).

Perhaps for Spuffy fans who think that the Bangel issues were already history this doesn't work.  But I've always thought that Angel had a stranglehold on Buffy's heart -- and I like that the story is finally dealing with that.  I like that a lot.

One thing that made me very happy about the Spuffy pages we've seen so far is that some non-shipper fans who never much saw the appeal of Spuffy liked them here.  There's a rehabilitation of Spike (and possibly Spuffy) that I appreciate.  It's a relationship that is and was important, even if it ends up not being 'shippy.  And that's now very well established.  And like I said, posts from folks saying they never much liked them before, but like them now make me happy.  I like for Spike to be liked.

That leaves the big looming question.  Joss has turned Angel into Captain Hammer.  He's writing a story about how Twu Wuv 4eva Bangel literally destroys his narrative 'verse.   I love the subtext on those things becoming in your face text.  But.  It's doing so by telling a different sort of story.  The entire 'verse is knocked askew.  I read the Twilight event as literally taking the show and turning it into bad fanfic.  Elements of the story are lifted out, highlighted, and thereby distorted.  It's not just Angel or Bangel.  Xander is practically a Gary Stu.  Willow is a goddess.  Places like England and Germany are now bad cliches.   The entire structure of the 'verse is bent and twisted and distorted and is going to rip apart.  We've been told repeatedly that nothing will be the same in the wake of the finale of season 8.  I read Buffy's distortions in this context.   Angel was always her prince.  But that element of her story is now exaggerated and distorted.  It makes her look like she's regressed.  I think there's a truth to it that's important.  I stand by my "Spuffy reading" (which was really an anti-Bangel reading).  But it's truth told strange.  I want to see how it plays out.  But do understand that the reason it works for me is because it's in the context of this funhouse version of 'the verse.

The meta is inevitably going to be painful for fans.  Buffy's story had been told.   To want to revisit it for more of the same would be to invite a rehash and banality.  Fans may want that, a lot.  But it can't be a good story if it just keeps going because fans want to.  The seed of the story was planted and was fruitful, but it had an expiration date.  The only way the story can go on in a vital way is if the 'verse literally gets ripped apart and remade.  I look forward to seeing what that looks like.  But for everyone invested in the story as it was, Joss is very sharply saying let go.  It's not surprising that a lot of fans *are* letting go.  I'm not sure how I feel about that.  I admire what the story has to do.  I don't like the destruction left in its wake.   I'm especially ambivalent about the naked metaphors about the fandom, which I read as portraying us as at least somewhat malevolent.  I'd say Joss has some issues with us.

My last thought of the afternoon is about Buffy being punished again for sex.  No.  That's not what's happening here.  Her sex with Satsu wasn't punished.  It wasn't going to take cause she wasn't much with the gay and she wasn't open for relationship with her, but the sex was good and nothing bad happened as a consequence.  What we are doing is revisiting Buffy's primal wound around her first sexual experience.  This is all about Angel, not all about sex.  And nota bene: Spike's bed is in a corner just like Angel's bed was.  That's what this is all about. 

Thus my ramblings.  I very much look forward to the last few issues.  I am scared.  If all the 'verse is distorted and trashed, Spike may well catch it bad at some point.  My hope is that he and Faith are there for different reasons.  But who knows?  Meanwhile, I am very sad about the present turmoil in the fandom.  Big hugs all around.  I've got no comfort to offer, and I hate it when people are hurting.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-09-22 07:54 pm (UTC)
elisi: (Bangel4evah by zanthinegirl)
From: [personal profile] elisi
But because people I respect, admire and even care about seem wounded by the comics. And I wonder if every time I write about them it's rubbing salt in wounds.
One, if I cared, and took them seriously, the comics would hurt me very much. However I would be (and am) happy that others enjoy them, and find something worthwhile in them. And *I* worry that my snark upsets those who *do* like them...

ETA: Just one thing (shouldn't be here at all) - re. the position of Spike's bed. I doubt it has any significance AT ALL, since I very much doubt Jeanty bothered to look up Angel's bed. Similiarly, I can't see it crossing Joss' mind to include something like that. Sorry. But if it makes you happy, then don't let my cynicism stop you! :)
Edited Date: 2010-09-22 07:59 pm (UTC)

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Date: 2010-09-22 08:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
I'm glad you have distance! We'll see what happens! No worry about your cynicism though -- I totally see where you're coming from!!

BTW: I still love that icon. The comics at least gave us that!
Edited Date: 2010-09-22 08:20 pm (UTC)

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Date: 2010-09-22 07:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pamsblau.livejournal.com
I know what you mean. I'm happy about the comics. I'm happy about Spike and Spike/Buffy. The story works for me and i'm sorry for my friends for whom it doesn't.
I have been feeling really crappy all day. The Spuffy fandom seems so disunited right now. It's sad.:(

(no subject)

Date: 2010-09-22 08:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
:hugs: These things usually do come and go, right? I hope it'll blow over. What worries me is that the comics are going to keep coming, and they provoke strong reactions. :(

(no subject)

Date: 2010-09-22 08:02 pm (UTC)
shapinglight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shapinglight
Georges has told the Bangels to be very afraid specifically about the Spuffy; it's not impossible).

He has? When did he say that?

I'm in an odd position vis-a-vis the comic, in that I don't really like it and don't think there's nearly as much in it as you do, but because it's Joss and Spike I can't quite look away and go on hoping for - well, I don't know what really.

I've tried to keep my lack of squee to myself for a long time now, but since Spike came back I can't do that any more, sadly.

I hope I haven't hurt anyone's feelings with what I've said, but most of all I'm sorry that anyone's feelings had to be hurt over something like this.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-09-22 08:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
Q&A #13:

21. bamph: What do you think Buffy/Angel shippers should feel now after issue 35 and what's coming up and with the arrival of Spike on the scene now? Be as vague as you want.

Georges: Afraid. Be very afraid.

***

People need to express what people need to express. Like you, I'm just sad about all the hurt feelings (all over). (Though I do wish you could spend a day seeing the comics the way I do -- one always wants to share a squee!)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-09-22 08:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] local-max.livejournal.com
Since I'm not part of Spike or Spuffy fandom, I don't have much to add, though unsurprisingly I'm on board with your read of the Spuffy interactions. In particular I agree that his straight talk, calling her a moron is the equivalent to Buffy's words to him in "Get it Done." And that for Buffy and Spike (or Buffy and anyone!) to have a real chance, Buffy's Angel issues really do need to be laid to rest. The big kiss hello in EoD/Chosen does suggest that she wasn't over him then, much as she acknowledged flaws in their relationship. And Joss has to know that Bangels still took that kiss as confirmation that they were always and forever. So it's understandable that he's giving them a last hurrah before destroying them.

I agree too that Joss isn't being nice to fandom. Shadowkat in particular has laid out the perspective of why the season can be seen as arrogant and immature of Whedon, biting the hands of the fans that feed him. I think Joss really appreciates the fans, but maybe he wants to reclaim the story and needs to do so through fannish means? I like the story, but I can't deny that it looks a little bit like it's supposed to be painful and not just in the usual narrative ways, and feel ambivalent about that.

And nota bene: Spike's bed is in a corner just like Angel's bed was. That's what this is all about.

N.B. This is Buffy's version of the replay. Angel's was in AtS--note how when he sleeps with Darla, the shooting is the same, but with blue sheets instead of red, depression instead of passion. But it looks like Angel isn't over those issues, since he's back here (though yes, his story is primarily about Buffy and only secondarily about him this season). Colour-wise, I like the movement from red (Innocence) to blue (Reprise) to beige (Last Gleaming)--beige is a much more neutral colour, neither entirely hot nor cold.

The entire 'verse is knocked askew. I read the Twilight event as literally taking the show and turning it into bad fanfic. Elements of the story are lifted out, highlighted, and thereby distorted. It's not just Angel or Bangel. Xander is practically a Gary Stu. Willow is a goddess. Places like England and Germany are now bad cliches. The entire structure of the 'verse is bent and twisted and distorted and is going to rip apart. We've been told repeatedly that nothing will be the same in the wake of the finale of season 8. I read Buffy's distortions in this context.

And that's worrying for all involved too isn't it? Bangel/Angel is what got hit the hardest. But I think you're right about Xander and about Willow. You can see it with Giles too, when he becomes boring exposition man in Safe and in Twilight--despite Emmie's reasonable protests, Safe's writing him as "British" and boring might actually work as part of the story. Don't know where this is leading. Right now the thing that's getting to me is how much I don't want anyone to die.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-09-22 08:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
Intersting bit on Giles as exposition man. Anything that can redeem Safe even a little bit is good.

Beige is interesting to ponder as well.

Also, glad you share my ambivalence about the meta-commentary on fandom. I really both love it and appalled by it. At the same time.
Edited Date: 2010-09-22 08:45 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-09-22 10:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com
I agree too that Joss isn't being nice to fandom.

No, he's not. #33/34 gutted me like a fish and left me flailing in a tailspin for months until a month ago when I finally realized I wasn't hurt anymore.


You can see it with Giles too, when he becomes boring exposition man in Safe and in Twilight--despite Emmie's reasonable protests, Safe's writing him as "British" and boring might actually work as part of the story.

LOL! Now you have fanwanked the bad writing by Krueger. I can accept that. Just like how I can accept that SMG lost her voice from flying to Australia to shoot Scooby Doo while shooting Season 7, but that this works in the sense that Buffy is so tired in Empty Places/Touched that she has no voice left.

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Date: 2010-09-22 08:41 pm (UTC)
next_to_normal: (Buffy in class)
From: [personal profile] next_to_normal
You know, Maggie, I think this post just helped me land on a metaphor for how I feel. :)

Joss is Angel. He just destroyed the world, out of carelessness or stupidity or misguided good intentions, maybe a combination of all three, I'm not sure. But, you know, I kind of liked the world the way it was, and now it's besieged by demons because of him. He doesn't get to swoop in and save me from those demons and act like it's not his fault we're in this mess in the first place. Maybe some people will be able to forgive him, if it all works out in the end, and maybe they'll call him a hero for saving the day - and hey, maybe a few people even want to space-fuck him because they're under the influence of something - but given all the destruction that's been wrought, I still think it would've been better if he'd just left well enough alone. Buffy was doing fine without him.

I have definitely found certain opinions to be hurtful or rubbing salt in the wound, but for what it's worth, your posts aren't among them. And although I'm not feeling very chatty about BtVS anymore, I want you to know that I am following along and enjoying your note project.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-09-22 08:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
Glad you have a useful metaphor! Though I don't think it's carelessness or stupidity. I think it's deliberate. Angel might be destroying the world by accident. Joss is doing it on purpose. A lot will depend on how he rebuilds it, but for folks who liked it as it was, why wouldn't you be angry?

You're much missed, but I'm glad my own posts aren't part of the problem for you. And glad you like the note project!

I'm reading your feed from DW. I comment less readily cause it's a few clicks more complicated - but I'll get over that at some point and have a say from time to time!
Edited Date: 2010-09-22 08:49 pm (UTC)

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Date: 2010-09-22 08:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lusciousxander.livejournal.com
I understand how you feel. I feel the same way sometimes, especially since I've always liked S8. I try hard to remind myself that everybody has a right to voice their opinions -good or bad- and I just have to let the bad slip and not let it get me down. I've stopped reading reviews written by fans who dislike the comics -most of them are people I love and respect. Reading those reviews will only hurt, and I'm here to have fun. I guess it's the best way to avoid pain and disappointment.

I hate my hate for S7 and right now I know what it's like for those who like it to read my snark and rants about it.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-09-22 08:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
We all care so much, don't we?

I wasn't in the fandom back in the day -- but I imagine it was all every bit as divisive as this is...

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Date: 2010-09-22 08:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jamalov29.livejournal.com
But my ongoing engagement with the fandom is because I think the comics are interesting to think about, and they are what I most want to write about. I think it's very fine like it is and I hope you will always keep the pleasure of writing down your thoughts. My own involvement is more about the TV show , but I love to believe that we all take something valuable from the verse and that is all that matters.
Like I wrote in my post , while comics aren't my thing, I wish to all those who like them to get a satisfying reading experience, and I mean it.
And I wonder if every time I write about them it's rubbing salt in wounds. I don't know what to do with that.
There are a number of wide array of reactions/ sensibilities in fandom so I guess there's always someone bound to be hurt by what someone else is saying . This makes me sad but what can we do? We try as much as possible not to sound defensive or angry in some circumstances ,but the written word isn't always able to convey exactly what we're feeling inside.
So no , it's not rubbing salt , it's just you expressing something that is important to you when you write about the comics and your Spike's love and it should remain that way , for you and everybody.

I respect everyone's tastes , even those far away from mine.
If the B/A crowd is happy at the end , good for them. If B/S shippers( or some parts of them )are content with what they get , it will be nice too.
If the non-shippers are satisfied, the pleasure is mine as well.

I don't understand how things have escalated again , I only wish they hadn't and that people enjoy what they want to.
Edited Date: 2010-09-22 08:55 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-09-22 09:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
Thanks for the comment, and I very much liked your post on the subject. I share your sadness about the way things have escalated for the moment.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-09-22 09:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] penny-lane-42.livejournal.com
I adore this post.

As you know, I'm more Spuffy-positive than you are, but I agree with about 90% of this and think it's insightful and great. And I hope you would never stop writing about S8. People can skip over it quite easily if they want to avoid it, and this is your journal, after all (though of course it's great that you take others into account). Besides, I love hearing your S8 thoughts. Your opinion is among the most valuable to me and you always make me think when you're writing about it. Keep on writing, I say!

I'm kind of with [livejournal.com profile] local_max feeling that this could be genius but it also is pretty self-indulgent and immature. But I'm withholding judgment until the season ends, and I'm not so much a fan of Joss personally as I am of some of his writing, so even if I do come out of this thinking less of him, that doesn't really matter.

Was this comment coherent at all? Probably not. Sorry about that!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-09-22 09:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
Very coherent! There might be self-indulgence and immaturity in the mix. But I think there's a serious artistic reason to want to destroy the 'verse -- it's the fruition of Lie to Me. My real ambivalence is that it necessarily hurts good people. And yeah, there's a side of mockery that really isn't nice. So depending on how it all plays out, my feelings about Joss will likely be much more ambivalent when all is said and done. It's not surprising. Like Buffy he's a little bit self-righteous. Even more so. And who knows, maybe he's calling himself on all that in writing this story as well. He did put himself into the book as a dog obsessed with his balls. More to the point, all the god-stuff is about him.

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Date: 2010-09-22 11:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] norwie2010.livejournal.com
Buffy's story had been told. To want to revisit it for more of the same would be to invite a rehash and banality. Fans may want that, a lot. But it can't be a good story if it just keeps going because fans want to. The seed of the story was planted and was fruitful, but it had an expiration date. The only way the story can go on in a vital way is if the 'verse literally gets ripped apart and remade.

This means Buffy Summers has to die. (At the very least to be send away, imprisoned, etc.) The universe (story) may then freely splinter and tiny crystals tell different tales with Characters that are not Buffy (arcs in season 9&10).

This is the final consequence of it (ironically, spaceporn wouldn't be "Bangel's last hurrah" - but Buffy's last hurrah - we'll see if she gets a send-off by Spike, too).

(no subject)

Date: 2010-09-22 11:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
There's definitely room for Buffy to die. But I tend to think that now that she's been torn down as she has, her story does need to keep going.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-09-22 11:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hazel75.livejournal.com
Your posts never rub salt in the wound. I will say I think I'm going to take a break from comics meta, but I'll still be around for the other stuff :)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-09-23 01:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
I'm glad you'll be around for other stuff -- and I understand wanting a break!

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Date: 2010-09-22 11:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com
This is a great post. I was happy to read it. Thanks. :)

I think it's interesting that you point out Buffy's self-righteousness. I think that's where she gets her "inferiority complex about her superiority complex". It reminds me that the protagonist privilege is a part of her identity, but something that she is ashamed of and has internalized.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-09-23 01:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
Yay for happy! And definitely agree about Buffy feeling ashamed of her p.p. That's why I think her story going forward could be so interesting!

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Date: 2010-09-23 12:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] infinitewhale.livejournal.com

Buffy's character has been put into a very dark light. I actively like this. Buffy has always been a little bit self-righteous. The next step in her story had to be the place where her moral certainty gets battered. I doubt we leave it here; she'll build back up, and will be a richer character for the journey. Is it OOC that Buffy has fallen in the manner we see her fall here? I'll ponder that a bit more below. But the fact of her fall isn't a problem for me.

Buffy isn't retrievable at all given that these mistakes have nothing to do with being self-righteous, her personality or her character. Buffy has never thought she was always right about everything. That was a main character point in S6 and S7. This commentary in the comics seems more dedicated to activating the slayers--Buffy thought it was right, apparently no one else did. There is no bridge-gap between that and this any more than there was Willingham's Spike to Whedon's and Lynch's. None.* You can't come back from something when you don't know how you got there, how you go from not beating evil by doing evil to bankrobbing, blackmail and usery. All you end up with is a hypocrite, one that didn't feel about about those mistakes.

Buffy being punished again for sex.

Buffy gets punished for having sex with 'bad boys'. The issue with Joss in this is he catered to Bangels for years and now wants to smack them in the face, presumably. As a storyteller, he had every opportunity to send that message to a much broader public, never did. Instead he's going back on a more mature end to both relationships for a rather sexist diatribe on the subject. He's preaching, basically, not telling a story if that's the case.

*The fact that there isn't an explanation leads me to believe another shoe will drop. We're told why Willow cheats, why Dawn did, even why Angel did what he did and how they came to those decisions. Not so much for Buffy, which is odd. Hints at a wish in the first dream might suggest an accidental Faustian deal or someone did something to her. The bits about puzzle pieces as well. To me, her lying on the ground like that is a little over the top for just a betrayal.

I think Norwie is onto something that Buffy has to die. Not in the sense of actually dying, but I think there are lots of indicators she'll be cast away at the end. That is her nightmare. You have Willow's rather out of nowhere hinting that she wouldn't bring Buffy back again in ABH. We know magic is going away, probably when the Seed breaks and Spike suddenly pops up with a trans-dimensional ship and we know he'll be around a lot in S9.

My guess is the Seed is destroyed and the spell/wish/whatever on Buffy gets removed, she becomes aware and is left trapped in another dimension.

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Date: 2010-09-23 01:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
Hmmm... I disagree on both points.

Buffy's totally retrievable. She gave in after being under a huge amount of pressure, plus with whatever the Twilight event is doing to her. She's fallen. Why can't she come back from that? I'm not tracking your logic here.

Buffy isn't punished for having sex with 'bad boys'. She had a catastrophic first experience with Angel, and replayed it with Parker (who was totally a stand in for Angel). I don't see that she was punished for having sex with Spike. What's happening now is still all about Angel. And her relationship with Angel is fraught with dark matter, so it makes sense that things go kerblooey with him.

Agree, though, that there are pieces that would serve as foreshadowing if Buffy ends up dead or gone.

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Date: 2010-09-23 04:24 am (UTC)
ext_15439: (Default)
From: [identity profile] ubi4soft.livejournal.com
Hey, I love your ramblings and I NEED your ramblings on the comics, the fact that I may have a slightly different opinion when I read them is what fandom is about.

I remember you asking me if I'm happy with Lynch's take that Spike is 8.5 on an Angel scale and I told you that as long as Buffy will mean something to Spike, so will Angel, that he must grow up above both of them and this is something that can be done only by Joss. I think this is what Joss is doing now: Spike is over Buffy (and Angel) so I no longer have hopes for Spuffy.

As for the rest of the comics? I want to see how the story ends. Spike's there, what more can I want?

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Date: 2010-09-23 05:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
Thanks!

Why do you think Spike moving up the scale spells the end for Spuffy?

I hope the story keeps treating Spike well!

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Date: 2010-09-23 09:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] francy-m79.livejournal.com
That was a great read, Maggie! I always enjoy reading your stuff!

That sad, I'm very much in turmoil. I have avoided anything Btvs/fandom-y for years. I thought I was completely over Btvs (although I still loved Spuffy dearly...my favourite couple/storyline ever), but then, recently, I did a Btvs/Ats rewatch, and got sucked in in the 'verse all over again.

Then, I read that in issue 36 Spike was back in the picture (it's difficult to avoid the comics completely, when you are a member of a Buffy forum! LOL ), and I started reading about the comics to see what happened, and what was going to happen with Spike. And boy, do I wish I hadn't bothered!

I liked Chosen. It wasn't perfect, but I thought it was the absolutely perfect way to end the show (a hopeful future for Buffy and the gang, both Spuffy and Bangel validated, freedom for the viewer to imagine where the characters would go from there, etc...). The show should have been left alone, and the comics should never have been made. I will never change my mind about that!

But the comics exist, and I don't like pretty much anything about them, judging from what I have read around. I am not one of those people who can disregard them, though, because I understand they are considered canon.
Beside the murdering of Spuffy (we will never have another "reunion scene". We got what we got, and it was the worst possible), we find a verse in which things are even more troubled and depressing than they were before...so much for Buffy's hopeful smile at the end of Chosen. These stupid comics are undoing everything that season 7 had achieved, for me.

I'm trying to put some distance and not be so invested... but these comics are really making me unhappy. I am trying to be ok with a Spuffy friendship, but no matter how much I try, it's not enough for me. I don't expect a happily ever after, but I would like Buffy and Spike to make love (or even just kiss) even only just once, when it actually matters.. not when Spike was soulless and Buffy was using him, but when both of them want it for the right reasons. I think Spike would deserve that, and the Spuffy fans would as well.

But I guess it's pretty impossible, as long as Buffy sees Angel as her first choice, and the love of her life. *barf*

Sorry for the poem, I haven't talked about Btvs so much in years! LOL *wants to go back to bubble of unawareness*

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Date: 2010-09-23 06:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
I guess what I find most hopeful about the comics is that it's dealing with the problem that Buffy sees Angel as the love of her life. I'd hoped in the very last minute in the Chosen, she'd seen that wasn't true. But it was never clear to me. I don't mind a story where she deals with that head on. It makes sense to me that she'd need some experience to really see that he's not. Her story had been that she couldn't be with the perfect guy -- and what's going to change that except being with that guy and finding out that it's really not perfect.

We'll see.

I hadn't been able to imagine any first reunion scene between Spike and Buffy that worked for me, so this one actually is OK -- because by having it be a non-reunion scene it sort of implies that they are so together on some level that they just pick up without a beat.

I'm willing to bet money we get some physical contact between the two. We'll know one way or the other soon enough.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I totally get where you are coming from, even if I don't see it the same.

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Date: 2010-09-23 05:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] calturner.livejournal.com
You always write such interesting and insightful posts, Maggie, and this one is no exception. Thank you! :)

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Date: 2010-09-23 06:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
Thanks!!

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Date: 2010-09-24 04:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shipperx.livejournal.com
A few days late but...

And I wonder if every time I write about them it's rubbing salt in wounds.

Here's my thought. Our journals are our own. We need to be able to voice our opinions in our own journals. That's what they are for. And, for all we do need civility and kindness in fandom. We do need compassion. I think it's too much to ask of ourselves -- or of anyone -- to place responsibility for someone else's emotional state on us. (Err... did the way I state that make any sense?) We can't really control how other individuals feel at least not in matters where we're stating our own reaction or thoughts about a book or movie or comic, media. etc. These are texts and media that are going to provoke different reactions and everyone is allowed their feelings. It's a bit unrealistic (and I'd venture to say even unfair) to expect everyone censor themselves for fear that their geniune reaction might cause someone else to react badly.

Which, again, is not to say that civility, kindness, and compassion are unimportant. Heck, they're essential. It's the grease that allows the machinery of civilization and fandom to function. It is good to cut each other some slack, to allow for differences of opinion, to behave in a compassionate and civil manner as much as we can. But we really cannot be responsible for anyone's emotions but our own. And if we're talking in our own LJ and are expressing our reactions, feelings, and opinions then I think we need to realize we're allowed to do that... and others are too. If someone doesn't want to read it, if our reactions brings about a distressed response from someone else, then there's always the choice to step back and not read. There are filters and friending and all the ways we need to shield ourselves from what is distressing. If there isn't name calling, vendetta pushing, offensive of an individual and personal nature, etc. then we need to allow people the space to express themselves in their own journals and to understand that that is their space.

Basically, we should all strive to be considerate, but it's an unnecssary and unfair expectation that people need take responsibility for the emotional response of the rest of the world. We need to leave room for honesty and have empathy enough to understand that we can feel differently about things -- and express it -- and also understand that everyone has feelings here and opinions. And, while we may not feel the same or hold the same opinion about something, that's okay. We can't expect everyone to go around censoring themselves because... that sort of defeats the purpose of LJ. Civility is good, walking around on eggshells fearing the reactions of others... kinda stifling.

I'm interested in opinions and ideas even when they don't align perfectly with my own. We learn things that way and gain perspective, and even if it doesn't necessarily change how we view things, it allows us insight into how others do. :)

And I genuinely like (and agree) with much of what you have to say here. I do.

RE: the preview, I didn't have much of a reaction beyond the text of it because the preview is but a snippet. I actually would like to know more before coming up with a reaction... because the Jossverse has made me paranoid cautious.
Edited Date: 2010-09-24 04:47 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-09-25 07:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
I usually feel free to speak my mind. I think what I'm trying to say here is that it just hurts to see folks hurting - and the comics are making folks hurt. I haven't felt any pressure from anywhere to censor myself. And I'm not going to censor myself. It's an internal thing. If people are snarking and stuff, I can fire away with pleasure. It's when oxes are gored. But yeah, at the end of the day we're all in charge of our own selves and our own reactions.

Re: the preview: I understand the caution. All bets are off, and it'd be foolish to kick back and think we're somehow going to avoid Joss's wrecking ball. But Jeanty told the Bangels to be afraid of the Spuffy, and I keep looking at that bed... which I do not think is randomly drawn to be the spitting image of the Bangel bed of lost innocence.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-09-25 04:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] treadingthedark.livejournal.com
These comics have done nothing but hurt my Spuffy heart from the beginning. The lack of Spike from the get go, even in Buffy's head, the Satsu, the Bander, the Spacefrak, the bitchy reunion, every word out of Allie and Jeanty's mouth, one hurt after another.
In my opinion, there is no saving it anymore. And I expect the worst, so that I can not be disappointed any more. Hopefully. I know, there is always a lower place.

Saying that, the things that have made me feel better are laughing about it, with penguins, broccoli and cake, parodies, or ignoring it and pretending it doesn't exist and reading fic that does the same, and reading hopeful, optimistic reviews that find some good, although not really letting myself believe them.

I want all of these things. They all helped, and I selfishly don't want anyone's voice to be silenced. Unfortunately voices have been silenced and that hurts too.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-09-25 08:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com
I think we all need to enthusiastically agree about the greatness of penguins.

About the Spuffy of it... It's too OTT, the wrecking of Spuffy, for that to be the last word. If you want to write off Spike, you mention him early on. Buffy makes it clear she cares, but not like that. It's plausible and it's finished.

Buffy may not heart Spike. I've always thought it was an open question. But she's not callously indifferent. So all the things you point to as stuff that is hurtful to your Spuffy heart, I find annoyingly positive for mine. (Annoyingly because it can't go as well as I see it going right now -- and the signs I read are very positive). Because we know she cares, her lack of sign of care means she cares a great deal. Spike doesn't get the big last minute entrance if he's a character with little emotional resonance for Buffy. On the contrary.

I share your sadness about voices that have gone silent. As much as I like the comics and have hopes for them, I hate what they are doing to the fandom.