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maggie2 ([personal profile] maggie2) wrote2009-01-12 05:27 pm

Spike and Season 8

It's not so obvious to me that Spike isn't going to play a role in season 8

 

I’m under the impression that a lot of people assume that Spike will certainly not figure in season 8, and that Joss either never was interested in Spike (or Spuffy) or he views that story as settled and is just moving on.   Of course, we won’t know until the tale is done, but it does seem to me that it would be very strange if the same writer who knew that Angel marked Buffy for life didn’t think that Spike, who played at least as major a role in Buffy’s story, could vanish from her story without trace. But all I want to argue for here is the proposition that based on what we have seen in the first 21 issues, there is plenty of room for Spike to enter the story, perhaps even in an important way.

 

Before getting to the text, it’s worth observing that Scott Allie has said (Slayalive Q&A #20, question 4) that Joss has the right to use the characters in Angel as much as he likes. There thus seems to be no contractual reason for Spike to remain offstage. All that will matter is what the story demands. 

 

While I wouldn’t go so far as to argue that the story demands that Spike play a role, there is a fair amount of text at this point that would retrospectively set up his appearance.

 

1.   Buffy is the main character of the series. (Duh). When last we saw her, Spike was arguably the most important person in her world – the one who was in her heart, the one with whom she shared the fiery hands of passion, the one whose name was the last word she spoke in the entire series, the one with whom she spent what could well have been her last night in the world, the one who stood by her when all her other significant folks kicked her out of her own house, etc. etc. etc. The status of Buffy’s relationship with the person who was so very important to her was left hanging at the end of the story. It matters how it is resolved. Really. Angel hung over her story for years. It’s unreasonable to think that Spike vanished without a trace in 18 months, or that the resolution of Buffy's story with Spike is insignficant.

 

And it’s not like the writers of season 8 are insensible of the fact that romantic story lines from season 7 need to be resolved in season 8. Pretty much the first thing we learn about Faith in #6 is that Robin ended up not surprising her – she’s still very much alone. It took a while, but we finally learn that Xander really did spend some serious time mourning Anya (#13). If Joss really wanted to close off the Spike/Buffy story line, he’d have done so much the way Faith/Robin got closed out. He didn’t.

 

2. On the contrary, one of the first things Joss tells us about Buffy is that she doesn’t know the significance of the Immortal to either Angel or Spike.  It opens the door to the possibility that she does not know that they tried to track her down in TGIQ. Far from closing the story down, Joss offers a tantalizing detail that reminds us that we really don’t know where things stand between Buffy and Spike.

 

3. There is the mysterious absence of Spike from Buffy’s dream space (#3), where every other significant figure in her life is present. (With the possible exception of Hank). Angel is here, as is Riley. Tara, and Dawn, and Faith, and, Joyce, and all the major villains and the Scoobies. There are cubes from early in Buffy’s life through season 7 (Xander with an eye patch; Caleb).   There are three ways I can think of to account for this fact. (a) The scenes and figures drawn were chosen by Jeanty and have no particular significance. But Enisy asked Allie about this, and Allie says that Joss did interact with Jeanty both about what should be there and about what should not be there (Slayalive Q&A #19, question 6). (b) Buffy really doesn’t see Spike as an important person in her life (beyond his usefulness in her erotic fantasies).   That defies imagination. Whether it’s the fiery hands of passion or the bathroom scene, Spike has impacted Buffy enormously, both in good ways and in bad ways. (c) The absence is significant in a way that has yet to be revealed.

 

4. Buffy finally mentions Spike in A Beautiful Sunset sandwiched between Angel and Riley. As already noted, both Angel and Riley figured in her dream space. They’ve also both (now) appeared in the series. Angel in a nod to what lies firmly behind Buffy (#20); and Riley as either a villain or an undercover ally (#19). If two of the three major loves in Buffy’s life deserve a role in the series, it is even stranger that Joss couldn’t be arsed to close out a dangling thread about her most recent romantic involvement. 

 

5. There are plenty of places where one can read resonances with Buffy’s history with Spike, things that could take on different shades if Spike turns out to be part of this story.   In the first battle we are shown, Buffy is in a church killing a demon with a cross. The last time we saw Buffy in a church with a demon, the demon was draped on the cross in one of the most arresting images of the entire series.   General Voll points to the crater at Sunnydale and says “look what she did to her hometown”. But when Buffy last had anything to say about what caused that crater, her answer was “Spike”.   In Buffy’s dream about Xander, she promises to be gentle “this time”, yet knocks off Xander’s head and worries about being dark. There are resonances here with her not-so-gentle relationship with Spike, which was epitomized in the alley scene in Dead Things where she didn’t quite knock his head off. Buffy even says “oh balls” here, which is a line that comes from that scene in DT. Ethan’s entrance into her dream is teased as Spike (we just see his Spike-like clothes at the end of #2) and Buffy explicitly objects to him calling her “pet”.    Skipping ahead, and going in less detail: Dracula’s relationship with Xander mirrors in some ways Spike’s relationship with Buffy (evil vampire crossing lines to help the good guys because of love); Willow tells Frey that the most important men in Buffy’s life are lurks (and that that fact makes it too simple to say that Buffy’s life is about eliminating them); and in the most recent issue we have Clem and Harmony allied, the two demons who were friendly with Spike during his time in Sunnydale. None of these allusions or references have to mean anything. But they are available to mean something if Spike turns out to figure in the story. 

 

So we’ll see. It’s true that we’re nearly two years into the comics. But we’re also just over half way through the “season”. And in many of the seasons on Buffy, the real contours of the season aren’t revealed until the second half. It’s too soon to claim that Joss is going to pay no attention to Spike.  Indeed, I tend to think that the strange absences and silences point to a larger role rather than a smaller one – since the failure to close out Spike/Buffy quickly seems to demand some sort of pay-off when the story finally is continued.

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2009-01-14 01:11 am (UTC)(link)
Spike brags about sex? I recall him complaining about no sex because he was a ghost; and there's the scene with Angel which is about where he stands with Buffy and not about getting laid. What am I missing here?

And to repeat, I'm not forgiving if the reason for these problems is because IDW wants to pander to a bunch of boys. Or to put it another way, if they want to sell out, then who cares what's "canon" -- which is something that only matters because the original work was better than that.

[identity profile] sueworld2003.livejournal.com 2009-01-14 01:23 am (UTC)(link)
Well Spike himself has admitted in his past he has bragged, and remember his comment to Angel during their fight in Destiny. Yes I know that was in extreme circumstances, but I could see Spike bragging with the right audience and under the right circumstances.

"And to repeat, I'm not forgiving if the reason for these problems is because IDW wants to pander to a bunch of boys."

Joss is IMO is guilty of doing exactly the same when it comes to season 8 of course.

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2009-01-14 01:34 am (UTC)(link)
Well, I'll agree to disagree about who's pandering.

When Spike said he was a braggart he was talking about things like killing slayers (School Hard). Very different from coming across as so hard up for sex that one would go around boasting of it to others.

And as I said, the comments to Angel in Destiny are totally about Buffy and totally not generic boasting about getting laid. There's a world of difference here, and the fact that Brian presumably can't tell the difference is a big part of why I don't think he gets Spike, or his relationship with Angel. I wish I could remember specific examples, but there's a ton of meta on LJ by people who totally get what was going on in Destiny and that it had NOTHING to do with the sort of adolescent posturing that Brian has Spike doing. (Sorry, it's a button for me -- and I'm willing to believe that your understanding of Spike is quite different from my own, which would be why it doesn't bug you as much.)
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[personal profile] shapinglight 2009-01-14 07:39 pm (UTC)(link)
If Joss did want to pretend that Spike never existed, it'd be the first time ever that a major relationship just went poof from the 'verse without leaving any impact.

I just think that Joss may feel the threesome pic and the one oblique reference is quite enough. He probably feels it's enough of an acknowledgement and would be astonished to learn that people want more.

I'm sorry. I just don't think he has a role for Spike in this story and that there are certain aspects of the Spike/Buffy story he would rather avoid bringing up again (even though he signed off on them in the show).

FWIW, I think he hasn't a place for Angel either. Angel only appeared in no 20 because that was a special issue showcasing the defunct Buffy cartoon. Joss didn't write it, and if that issue had been missed out, the story wouldn't have suffered at all because we didn't learn anything in it that we didn't already know.

Riley, however, does have a role to play if only because he's a soldier. That IMO is why he's in it.

But no, I don't think Joss sees Spike as having any particular meaning to Buffy any more and I'm not expecting him to turn up in the story. Like I said, I would love to be wrong, though even if I am, I would be very nervous about what Joss would do with him.

I don't want to go into full slam mode until Lynch has had a chance to tell the whole story. But my real problems aren't related to Spike.

Likewise. There are far more egregious errors than anything that's been done with Spike, though him being my favourite character, I of course feel it more when I think he's been written badly.

You know, I don't think Joss is exploring Buffy's darkness in the way you think. I don't mean that he expects us to endorse everything that Buffy's done, but I don't think he's aware quite how badly she's coming across. I would expect her friends to behave rather differently towards her than just to complacently accept everything she does if we were really supposed to disapprove of it so much.
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[personal profile] shapinglight 2009-01-14 07:46 pm (UTC)(link)
One of the things I love most about the Buffyverse is its grounding in the real world - as if it's our world only skewed sideways. Its mundanity, if you like. I also love the underlying mythos of the world, with the Fanged Four and the Slayer legacy etc. However, in Fray, I found myself confronted with a character I didn't know or care about and who had no connection to the characters I did know and care about, and who simply wasn't interesting when cut off from that Slayer mythos, even though Fray's disconnection from it was an actual plot point.

I also thought Joss's sci fi world-building was pretty crap, frankly, and unfortunately Firefly only confirmed me in that view. I've managed to watch about half the episodes, but find them so irritating for so many reasons that I've never been able to get through all of them. Yet that show was Joss's big love.

I hope that answers your question?

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2009-01-14 08:49 pm (UTC)(link)
We'll see about Spike. I would argue very hard for the proposition that Spike is essential to Buffy's story up through The Chosen, and that Joss knows this and approves of it. He couldn't have written things the way he did if he was insensible of just how central Spike is.

But I do agree that part of "everything's all different" could well be that Buffy's story is no longer really focused on the things represented by the Angel/Buffy/Spike movement. I still think Joss has to do something to move us from a world where Spike was genuinely emotionally intimate with Buffy to a world where Buffy's loneliness is an explicit theme. Is she there because she rejected Spike and that intimacy? Or because he died and it was forced on her? And as I've said, if he fails to offer some kind of bridge, then y'all are right about how bad season 8 is.

I look forward to some interesting conversations about AtF once it wraps up. I'd love to compare notes with you on it.

You know, I don't think Joss is exploring Buffy's darkness in the way you think. I don't mean that he expects us to endorse everything that Buffy's done, but I don't think he's aware quite how badly she's coming across. I would expect her friends to behave rather differently towards her than just to complacently accept everything she does if we were really supposed to disapprove of it so much.

I have always oscillated on this -- quite wildly. On good days, I think that Joss has ALWAYS challenged our conventional assumptions about heroes, and that the ambiguities of his two leads are totally intentional, and are meant as a critique of the genre and its typical audience. On bad days, I think it's an accident that these interesting ambiguities are there and/or that the writers are so bought into the notion that heroes are essentially good, and thus fail to notice how badly they're really behaving, and there is thus a huge tension between what I'm seeing and what they want me to see.

I have mostly sided with the former view, especially in the wake of the release of season 8. NFFY was huge for me because I think it's very clear that Buffy and Faith have inverted moral positions, and because the arc goes back to the season 3 stuff in a way that calls attention to just how murky it really was all along. At a minimum, the second arc of season 8 is very easily read as part of a show that has always meant us to think harder about good/evil dichotomies. Jane's comments on the latest issue say that this has always been intentional. The fact that ME explicitly chose to use Angel's hero music when he was locking the lawyers up with Darla and Dru suggests that they are quite intentional about contrasting the look and feel of the show with the actual moral content of what's going on. It opens up space for us to judge the characters independently of the cues of music or lighting or even of the reactions of characters within the show -- and those tensions really are interesting. I suppose at a minimum, I'm free to read the show that way even if the writers really don't know that Faith's original failure was an accident; or that Buffy was pretty darned abusive towards Spike in season 6; or that Angel ordering Lindsey's execution is seriously problematic. The show has stressed the distance between appearance and reality, and that frees up a lot of space for interesting engagement with the show, regardless of authorial intent.

Stray thought: OTOH, my negative reaction about AtF is almost entirely centered on the fact that I'm pretty darned sure that Brian is in the latter camp. He's done a lot of whitewashing, that suggests that he'd rather live in a world where heroes are 90% good, rather than the show I was watching where (in the case of Angel) the protagonist was always at serious risk of going the other way, and was always pretty mixed between good and bad. So I do have some sense that Buffy (all versions) and AtS really do have an intentional distance between the appearance of things and the truth of what's going on.


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[personal profile] shapinglight 2009-01-14 09:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Interesting. Not sure I can answer this comment in the way that it deserves, but I'll give it a try.

One final comment on the subject of Spike's importance to Buffy. Of course, I agree with you that he was important at the time. If Joss hadn't thought so, or had listened to the fans who shouted loudest (the Bangels), Spike would have had a minimal role in season 7 or possibly just come back as a villain. Having said all which, I still think Joss considers Spike's story with Buffy to be over and that she already has all the people that really matter to her around her, ie. Willow (in particular), Xander and Dawn. Not being a big 'core four' fan (or 'core three' as I suppose it is now, since Giles has been more or less written out), this has greatly reduced my enjoyment of the comic right from the start. Buffy and her friends are back in this odd, incestuous little huddle and to me, that seems like a big step backwards, but I don't think Joss sees it that way at all. He sees Willow and Xander as being the two people who are most important in Buffy's life. Everyone else - even Angel - is a thing of the past. Ephermeral. And that includes Spike. I don't believe Joss has a big role for him in the story. I don't believe he even has a small one.

But we'll see.

Also, while I agree with you about the moral ambiguity of Angel in his own show being quite deliberate and Lynch having either totally failed to grasp it or chickened out of showing it in the comic, I don't think the same is true of Buffy. I do think Joss meant to show her as flawed and human, but I don't think he ever set out deliberately to show her as morally ambiguous.

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2009-01-14 10:03 pm (UTC)(link)
Agree that Buffy is much less ambiguous than Angel. But there's always been a delicate question hanging over her, mostly regarding her self-righteousness and her corresponding tendency to (overly) harshly judge her enemies and to fail to see problems in those who are on her side. That lack of judgment/perspective seems to be worse (and more dangerous) now that she's sans watcher and in the position of leader. Fundamentally she's a total hero, but I like the shading, and I think it's deliberate.

I've never been a fan of the Scoobies either, but I did a fairly intensive rewatching of season 2 and the first half of season 3, and there's a lot more tension and distance and generic complexity than I picked up on to begin with. They are friends, but there's also a real hostility between Buffy on one side and Willow/Xander on the other. It reflects the tension ordinary folks have with heroes, who are needed but also feared (and resented). So I really don't mind revisiting them, especially if the purpose is to pull off the facade of the cozy chummy good old years of high school. And I tend to think we're going to get some facade pulling.

But of course, I'll always miss the vampires. I should add that I agree that it's unlikely that Spike will be back as a permanent fixture. I just think it would be astonishing if we didn't get more story about how Spike got (or gets) moved out of Buffy's life; and that Joss's refusal to tie this off quickly and painlessly signals that there's something in that transition that is important to Buffy's on-going story (even if Spike himself has no future in that story.)

[identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com 2009-01-14 11:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I think, and I don't know if you've been following Lynch's Angel and Spike series, but Whedon may be waiting until that story is completed before bringing Spike or Angel into Buffy. Because to do so before that, would spoil readers of the Angel and Spike series. Spike: After the Fall has been completed and answers a couple of questions regarding Spike - one, he's still somewhat tortured by his past, but working as a hero,
two - he's heavily involved with Fred/Illyria - who in a way has a lot in common with him, she's a demon that is infused with a human personality that is making her crazy, and she is mourning the man that loved her human side, but not the demon. Spike loved the human side of this demon, but mostly as a friend. So he has sort of moved on, partly because he had to. But as with Buffy, he can't have Fred/Illyria - she's hung up on Wes and she's not really Fred.

He's also resolved to a degree his relationship with Angel. And he knows quite a bit more about what has been going on with Angel than Buffy. Such as the fact that Angel has a son.

All of this does to a degree affect how Angel or Spike would be reintroduced. Since Whedon is co-plotting the Angel series and had a hand in the Spike series - it is not far-fetched that the two series are being plotted to a degree simulatneously.

Another piece of information - that is important, from a plotting perspective - Whedon is writing this story partly to lead up to how the Fray universe was created. What happened to seal off magic from the world. To cause the slayers to go dorment and the vampires to largely disappear. We are told in Fray that the last slayer, Buffy, found a way to push the demons and magic into another dimension and seal the door on that. In the picture explaining it - we see an image of someone who looks like Buffy disappearing into that dimension with the demons. Or possibly doing so. DarkWillow - grief-stricken, manipulates events in Time of Life to get Buffy to kill her, but we are never told why. Or what happened to Buffy and the slayers, it is only Buffy who is mentioned in the history books - the others aren't.

We are not told if Angel and Spike make it to this future universe, my guess is they don't. So what happened to them when the demons got sealed off? Angel - in the Angel series got his shanshu and is at the moment human. So that also must be addressed. And Spike has been alive for I'm guessing at least a year in the Buffyverse and I'm guessing she doesn't know. I'm also guessing that only Andrew and Giles know he's alive. I don't think anyone else does. Since he's in another dimension at the moment - hell-LA, he might as well be dead. Same with Angel.

So yes, I think you are right. Spike's absence speaks loudly than words in the Season 8 comic. He's not even mentioned by name, outside of the fantasy. Almost as if the lead character is deliberately NOT thinking about him. But her relationship with Satsu and how she's closed herself off does say something about how she dealt with his death. Also the fact that she dressed up for Riley, speaks to that, I think.

I'm not sure what Whedon plans here. He's a story-teller who is fascinated with the psychological/emotional journey of his characters - so it is possible you are right. But I also know that he is mainly interested in a much larger theme here...and it may not be one that answers the questions we want answered.

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 12:05 am (UTC)(link)
I have read Lynch's stuff. And yes, we need to know how that wraps up and how it is made to fit in with the Buffyverse before we can say what sort of appearance Spike could have. (I'm not even arguing that Spike himself must appear -- just that there has to be more story about him, either going forward or as a flashback to something happened between The Chosen and LWH).

I haven't read Frey yet, but I do know the basic premise. I'm not sure how to square that with AtF where we've seen flashforwards of both Spike and Angel into space agey futures.

I still need to know if Buffy is dealing with Spike's death, or his return (and whatever happened to keep them apart). However it goes, you're right that she sure seems to be closed off now.

I don't think we know yet if she was dressing up for Riley romantically, or just to improve his impression of her (last time he saw her was in As You Were), or because she's undercover and wants to make him think she's interested.

I agree Whedon wants to go in new directions. I'd be disappointed if he didn't. I still think he has to tell us how Buffy went from being very close to Spike to being back to fairly emotionally shut down. Just like he needs to tell us how she came to be robbing banks.

[identity profile] cozzybob2.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 03:19 am (UTC)(link)
Awwwwwwww! *pets* It's a brilliant post, and I really do think that you have some awesome points, I'm hoping just Joss gets me into the love again. At least, as far as BTVS is concerned. I loved Serenity, and I'm sure Dollhouse is great too--he is a brilliant writer. The problem is getting beyond the editors and his tendency to throw randomness into the mix and never explain them. The cracky, weird parts of s8 really threw me off.

Anyway, here's hoping there's a bigger picture! I have my hopes up, and am optimistic, despite appearances. ^^;

[identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 04:14 am (UTC)(link)
You don't really have to read Fray - all you need to read is Time of Your Life - which more or less explains it. I can't remember if the picture of the slayer disappearing into the other dimension is in Fray or Time of Your Life.

I was rather surprised by Fray, I actually liked it better than the Buffy comics.

But that's irrelevant. At any rate - like you I desperately want closure or some sort of resolution in regards to the Spike/Buffy relationship. I don't need much, just something similar to the graveyard chat that Buffy had with Angel in Chosen would suffice. But, I'm not sure Whedon will give it us. Scott Allie said something in the last letters page that could be interpreted that Whedon won't answer that question and leave it open-ended, much as he did the Angel/Buffy reunion after she came back from the dead in S6 - which happened but off-screen. (Except for one thing, he didn't leave that open-ended. We got a mention of the reunion. We had Angel mentioned at least five times after that, and we got the graveyard scene, plus the kiss. So, Allie was wrong about that.) And he didn't leave Riley and Buffy unresolved or open-ended. Nor has he left Willow and Tara, Willow and OZ or for that matter Xander and Anya and Xander and Cordy.
So...that adds some weight to our collective hopes. Because I do hope you are right.

But I'm wary. I don't quite trust the writer to do this, for numerous reasons. And if he does do it? I don't see it happening any time soon. In fact it may well not happen, if it does at all, until sometime in Buffy S9.
Yes, he plans on doing at least two more seasons. This is slated to run for more than 44 issues. And he's already stated that while he will most likely use Angel and Spike at some point, they are the big guns, and aren't being used lightly. Whatever that means. This is great news, except for one small teeny little problem - Whedon is currently obsessed with other ventures - such as Dollhouse and is handing over the Buffy enterprise to his underlings for a bit, until he can get Dollhouse off the ground. That's why the last issue of Time of Your Life took over four months to come out. Whedon is not the best multi-tasker in the world.

So...if that's what you are hoping for, prepared to wait a long time for it. It ain't going to happen any time soon. The next issue is about Satsu and Kennedy. The one after that is about Faith and Giles. Then there's one about what's going on with Twilight. Then we may, if we are lucky, get a bit of OZ - who is allegedly going to reappear at some point, or he might show up on Angel, not sure which. Plus the Angel gang and Spike still have to get out of hell.
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[personal profile] shapinglight 2009-01-15 11:30 am (UTC)(link)
and that Joss's refusal to tie this off quickly and painlessly signals that there's something in that transition that is important to Buffy's on-going story (even if Spike himself has no future in that story.)

And I'm afraid that I'll continue to believe that it's not so much a refusal as a failure to see Spike as being important to Buffy any more in any way whatsoever.

While of course hoping to be wrong.

[identity profile] treadingthedark.livejournal.com 2009-01-16 06:29 am (UTC)(link)
Very interesting discussion. I tend to nod along with everybody, even when you are all taking opposite points of view. You all make sense.

I would wish you were right Maggie. But I'm protecting my tender heart by accepting it isn't going to happen. And if Spike did turn up, I'd be scared it would just be to get hurt/used/abused/whored-up, by Buffy all over again.

It was upsetting enough that Buffy's only thoughts about Spike were the sex fantasy that had to be shared, but then finding out that Joss told Jeanty to draw Angel closer, well, I just don't need that kind of aggravation.

My interest in Season 8 ended very few issues in, although I did take a look at the Harmony comic mostly because I love Jane.

And the one thing that I am very sure about, Allie is an idiot.

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2009-01-16 05:30 pm (UTC)(link)
My theory doesn't at all say that people who love Spike oughtn't to be worried. In fact, since Spike's arc in Buffy really was complete, I'd say further story about *him* would likely be upsetting. It's just that I think to understand *her* story we need a clearer picture of how she thinks things ended with Spike.

It was upsetting enough that Buffy's only thoughts about Spike were the sex fantasy that had to be shared, but then finding out that Joss told Jeanty to draw Angel closer, well, I just don't need that kind of aggravation.

It would be upsetting if Buffy's only thoughts about Spike were as fantasy fodder. But that's the part I can't buy. At all. Spike might well NOT be Buffy's twu wuv 4eva, but even the most ardent Bangel in the world has to admit that if all Buffy took away from her arc with Spike is fantasy fodder then she's the most heartless insensitive bitch one could imagine. Joss can't be wanting to show her in that light. So either the dream cube space was inadvertent; or there's a point to it. Too painful for Buffy or some such. And if there's a point to it, that might also be part of why Joss wanted Jeanty to draw Angel closer in the threesome.

So we'll see. The cynics could be right, in which case I will cease to be a naive optimist and become a very cranky former fan.

[identity profile] treadingthedark.livejournal.com 2009-01-17 01:41 am (UTC)(link)
Keep your optimism. I hope you are right. I hope something good happens. I hope we cynics are pleasantly suprised. But, being cynics, we doubt it!

I enjoyed reading this discussion.

(Anonymous) 2009-01-17 02:39 am (UTC)(link)
Enisy recommended your article on the Dark Horse boards - I love what you've writen and you articulate things i've been thinking for a while. Nice to know I'm not the only one who still has hope of having this story resolved/continued (and not necessarily in a shippy way):)
Cheers,
Tranquillity

[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2009-01-20 04:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Whedon is not the best multi-tasker in the world.

Oh, I don't think that's exactly true. He's a great multi-tasker in the sense that he can keep so many balls up in the air. I think the problem is that his creative method leads him to micromanage. He wants to write it, direct it, oversee all the scripts, be involved completely in the creative process. And that's a lot to do. He's a great multi-tasker for managing to do Dollhouse, Season 8 and Cabin in the Woods all at once - but he drops the ball a bit because he can't resist being completely immersed in the creative process of all three.

[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2009-01-20 04:13 pm (UTC)(link)
In fact, since Spike's arc in Buffy really was complete, I'd say further story about *him* would likely be upsetting. It's just that I think to understand *her* story we need a clearer picture of how she thinks things ended with Spike.

Yes! Exactly. I don't need for Spike to come back to continue his story. I need for Buffy to stop being in the dark - I want to understand her. Does she know Spike is alive? How does she feel? That's what I care about the most. I don't need them to get back together, I just want some acknowledgment of the huge story that came before.

[identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com 2009-01-21 04:12 am (UTC)(link)
Well, I guess it depends on how define sucessful multi-tasking. The problem with multi-tasking is you focus on too many things at once and all suffer in some way. They slip away from you. I think that happens for everyone. You priortize and delegate.

Some people, not everyone and not necessarily me, felt that Whedon had too many balls in the air in 2002-2003, and that's why Firefly fell apart, Buffy S6 went offkilter, and Angel was a bit lop-sided. (Now I disagree a little with that view - but then I loved Buffy S6 and the second half of Angel S3, was actually fascinating, and I loved Firefly. I also believe they would have done that regardless. But the people who argue it, have valid points - stating Firefly got cancelled. Buffy lost viewers, as did Angel.)

I don't know - Whedon is a collaborative writer/story-teller working in a collaborative industry - we can't really just blame him if we don't like what is being created or just thank him if we love it. Also there are market pressures in the works that affect things. This is a long-ass way of saying that I think you may have a valid point.

What I do know is that there have been delays on Dollhouse. That he is struggling with it - but I think that would happen anyway. Also Dark Horse and IDW are sort of being lenient with Whedon - they know full well that he can jump ship whenever he wants and his gold as long as he stays.
So it is in their best interest to cater to Whedon, plus the owners/editors are fanboys who adore Whedon.

Add to that - Whedon actually trustes his co-plotters on the Buffy S8 and Angel comic enterprises. He loves Brad Meltzer (I think it's Brad) - who is his co-plotter on Buffy. Brian is a long time fan favorite comic book writer. And plotted out a good portion of the comic plot. Brian Lynch on Angel - also has Whedon's love. So that's two. And the other's he hand-picked.

You are right however - he's a horrid micromanager. Always has been. He rewrites scripts. The best sci-fi shows usually have micromanager head writers - I know RTD on Doctor Who - rewrites everyone's scripts but Stephen Moffit, who is taking over. And Whedon re-wrote just about everyone's but Minear, Fury, Espenson, Noxon, and to a degree Goddard.
Although I may be wrong about that. I know he re-wrote two of Doug Petrie's =- he and Noxon did. Fool for Love -was written mostly by Whedon and Noxon, Beneath you - Whedon rewrote and redirected the final scene.
And Selfless - Whedon rewrote bits of, but left most of it alone.
Also Whedon rewrote bits of Seeing Red, Dead Things, Gone, and Smashed.
As well as Grave. Because it was important that certain themes get addressed in the right way.

But wonky process - partly due I suspect to the industry in which he is working.

[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2009-01-21 03:07 pm (UTC)(link)
in 2002-2003, and that's why Firefly fell apart, Buffy S6 went offkilter, and Angel was a bit lop-sided.

Buffy S7. Sorry, nitpicky. :)

What I do know is that there have been delays on Dollhouse. That he is struggling with it - but I think that would happen anyway.

It's really difficult how he's being put under a microscope here. I think the sword of Firefly's damocles is hanging over his head and we just have to watch and over-scrutinize. There's been so much press about this show already and it hasn't even premiered.

he's a horrid micromanager. Always has been.

I can't help but be anything but grateful that he does that. All those scenes you listed I've always appreciated how Joss stepped in and made them better imo. I think the problem is not just that he's a horrid micromanager, but that he's a ambitious horrid micromanager with too many great ideas he wants to bring to life.

Because it was important that certain themes get addressed in the right way.

You just hit on something that I really admire Joss' creative works for - the themes. And I think he devotes incredible attention to how those themes are introduced and that they're present throughout the entire piece, episode to episode. It's something I've been complaining about with After the Fall (alone for the most part, though Maggie seems to be with me on the argument also) - that AtF doesn't have the carefully laid out themes of S8 and I think this is the clearest sign of Whedon's lack of direct involvement in the project.

[identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com 2009-01-21 05:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Buffy S7. Sorry, nitpicky. :)

No, I meant Buffy S6. I just forgot to add Buffy S7.

Firefly aired in the fall of 2002. And was cancelled in the spring.
Many viewers complained that Whedon handed the enterprise over to Fury and Noxon in the second part of S6 so he could focus on developing Firefly. (Writers will focus on a new show up to 12 months before it actually airs. Or have been known to. Whedon also, they complained focused too much of his time on launching the ambitious musical. ) They are wrong. The musical pretty much demonstrates that - in it all the themes and subplots of S6 are touched upon. So Whedon was clearly involved.

You are right, however, Buffy S7 - should have been included in my statement. Because another group of viewers whined about Whedon being too distracted during S7 to make it work. This doesn't really hold water - since Whedon was actually the busiest during the portion of the Season everyone liked - that aired in 2002. It was the second part of the season they disliked, when he was actually not involved with Firefly - because it had been cancelled. But it could be argued that he was burnt out by that point - but that would have been true regardless.

My take is there was more than one person involved.

I don't know if you've read kevin levine's blog? He was one of the head writers of MASH and Cheers. He says that by about the seventh season, actors start to burn out on the show - they get bored. They stop learning their lines ahead of time, flub lines, and will often memorize them right before they have to go on - just for a challenge. It's true, I guess of most long running series - the actor is a nomadic animal - who often likes to jump roles, and being stuck in one for a very long time while safe, secure and at times challenging, can for some actors be wearing. Sarah Michelle Geller left All My Children after less than three years - for much of this reason.

It's something I've been complaining about with After the Fall (alone for the most part, though Maggie seems to be with me on the argument also) - that AtF doesn't have the carefully laid out themes of S8 and I think this is the clearest sign of Whedon's lack of direct involvement in the project.

I've heard this complaint twice now. Please explain? Because I do see clear themes in Lynch's story. So I'm not sure what you mean?

They are admittedly noir based (not everyone likes noir) and a bit bleak, but definitely there. Example: The view that even if you are doomed to fail - you must strive anyway, to try to be a better person, to help those outside yourself. Or if you look into the abyss, it looks back at you. Or the theme that we are not at the whim of fate - we can flip the board and fight to write our own history.

Angel is about not being chosen, it's about the desire to be a hero or champion when you aren't. About trying to redeem yourself. And from a psychological perspective - how we handle this alien voice inside ourselves - the fight between the animal nature and the psyche.

I see all those themes. And they are pretty well set out. The plot is actually tighter than Buffy. With a definite end in sight.

I'm not sure what your problems are with the story or Lynch's handling of it? Please clarify.

Whedon's lack of direct involvement in the project

He's actually very involved according to Lynch. He plotted the story out with Lynch, identified the themes, and has told Lynch what characters to add and what to do with some of them.

PS: Sorry about all the typos in this post and the one above.

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2009-01-21 08:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I think when Emmie talked about Whedon's lack of direct involvement, she was referring to an interview he did recently where he said that beyond plotting and a bit of early feedback, he hadn't had any hand in AtF. And I do think it shows.

So on to the main question. Like Emmie, I'm very disappointed in AtF. But my disappointment would be not so much that their aren't themes, but rather that they are entirely pedestrian and uninteresting. Who doesn't think that you should keep on trying even when things look bleak? Seriously. It's not a theme that tells me *anything* that I don't already know.

I also think it's untrue to the greatness that was in the series. NFA is perfectly and utterly ambivalent about whether or not its good to "keep trying" even when everything is against you. Yes, you can read it as you (and obviously Lynch) do where the heroes fight the good fight and "go to work" even though they are against insurmountable odds. But you can also read NFA as being about a suicidal mission where the ends most certainly do not justify the means (killing an innocent, ordering the execution of another, doing hits on metaphorical representatives of businessmen and politicians -- which is assassination, not heroism in many worlds, etc. etc.). BOTH readings are there. Lynch only has one. And that is the heart of my complaint. It takes Angel from being a very fascinating reflection on the hero genre and the ambiguities of that genre to just being an ordinary garden variety exemplar of the genre: heroes fighting the good fight, blah, blah, bore me to tears, blah, make me angry because it was so much more and is not that any longer.

Yes, the plot is tight. But the mechanics of how the "we keep fighting no matter what" brigade manages to overcome what once really was meant to be an entity that couldn't be overcome (for profoundly interesting philosophical reasons) is not interesting, and again aggravating because it flat misses the dimension of the show I loved the most.

And SPOILER (which I'll put in my next comment.

Spoiler AtF #16

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2009-01-21 08:48 pm (UTC)(link)
And it's so not surprising that we're resetting the whole thing. The only resonant thing he did was kill Connor and he let that ride for exactly one issue before taking it back. Brian just isn't going to go for the hard edges. And that's part of the "we're just heroes" bit that he has going. It's nice for the crowd that likes that and wants their stories to be straight-forward and clean. But not for those of us who loved that it was exactly not straight-forward and clean.

[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2009-01-22 04:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Sarah Michelle Geller left All My Children after less than three years - for much of this reason.

With you on everything else you posted in this first part, but I believe another huge reason why SMG left AMC was because of a troubled working relationship with diva, Susan Lucci. Which angers me when you consider that Sarah was only 15 at the time she started working there. This troubled past is even obliquely referenced at the Paley Reunion who makes a sarcastic aside remark to Sarah about Lucci being such a positive role model.

I've heard this complaint twice now. Please explain? Because I do see clear themes in Lynch's story. So I'm not sure what you mean?

Here's the most recent interview with Whedon where he talks about After the Fall:

Jeffrey Berman: Do you think about it in terms of seasons?

Joss Whedon: I do. I do. Season 8 will be 40 issues long; I know what Season 9 is about, it's very different from Season 8.

Jeffrey Berman: 40?

Joss Whedon: Yes
.
Jeffrey Berman: Wow. Same thing with "Angel"?

Joss Whedon: The "Angel" thing is different. The "Angel" thing, they just, you know, they had a good writer, Brian Lynch, who had done a thing I admired, so I said, look, I can tell you where we were going with Season 6... You can't call it Season 6, because "Buffy" actually is Season 8, I'm literally executive producing the comic book.

Jeffrey Berman: I see.

Joss Whedon: I'm going through every script, I'm going through every sketch, I'm going through... I'm doing the job. On "Angel", I'll tell you basically what we had in mind, give you some ideas, and Brian and I went back and forth on a few things, then I just said "Good luck!"

(from The Write Environment DVD)

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