I'd add that Angel sees it as all being his fault except when Spike lays it all on him, in which case it wasn't all his fault. (Small point, and yes, someone can want to have it both ways; which is to say I think it's a good elaboration of the basic point).
I hadn't thought of Gunn as a mirror to Angel, but you are right. But there is a difference, and this has been puzzling me. Angel does bad things to achieve "good ends" as a souled vampire. Gunn is presented as being unable to see that the bad means to achieve good ends is a huge problem BECAUSE he's a soulless vampire. A lot of fans on the boards take this as yet another example of how souls make all the difference. There's an irony here which would be interesting if Lynch intended it. Souled Gunn had learned his lessons about the ends not justifying the means. He had accepted punishment, and he was clearly getting back to the actual mission. Souled Angel in NFA was basically where soulless Gunn is now. Not quite so extreme, but the same basic idea. Angel had not figured it out the way human Gunn had. But I don't know that we are meant to see either the negative commentary on Angel (i.e. that Gunn has to become a soulless vampire to fall to his level) or the injustice of things (Gunn, who was remorseful, becomes a vampire while Angel who still didn't get it becomes a human). The latter is not so keen when Angel has to give up his humanity. (And I'm really responding to fans who thought it was great that Angel became human and wanted him to stay that way -- a desire that requires that you miss things like the fact that souled Angel can be meaningfully compared to soulless gunn.)
I'm also not sure I'm convinced that a soulless vampire can still want good ends, but be entirely unable to see that there's a problem with killing innocent humans. Season 5/6 Spike was a good example of a soulless vampire who wants good ends (basically) but who has a very flawed understanding of how to get there. The differences are more subtle. Here we get bludgeoned with it. And I really never knew quite what to make of it. (Gunn isn't stupid, but he'd have to be to not notice the contradictions. The people who are evil in the cause of good are interesting because their actions are not so obviously evil that they can't deceive themselves about the evil.)
I like the smaller things you point to, though. Using the Fish and his underlings, for example. That is classic doing evil in the cause of good stuff. And it's much like Angel.
On to your next. BTW, I really, really appreciate this!!
Re: Angel...-and Gunn
I'd add that Angel sees it as all being his fault except when Spike lays it all on him, in which case it wasn't all his fault. (Small point, and yes, someone can want to have it both ways; which is to say I think it's a good elaboration of the basic point).
I hadn't thought of Gunn as a mirror to Angel, but you are right. But there is a difference, and this has been puzzling me. Angel does bad things to achieve "good ends" as a souled vampire. Gunn is presented as being unable to see that the bad means to achieve good ends is a huge problem BECAUSE he's a soulless vampire. A lot of fans on the boards take this as yet another example of how souls make all the difference. There's an irony here which would be interesting if Lynch intended it. Souled Gunn had learned his lessons about the ends not justifying the means. He had accepted punishment, and he was clearly getting back to the actual mission. Souled Angel in NFA was basically where soulless Gunn is now. Not quite so extreme, but the same basic idea. Angel had not figured it out the way human Gunn had. But I don't know that we are meant to see either the negative commentary on Angel (i.e. that Gunn has to become a soulless vampire to fall to his level) or the injustice of things (Gunn, who was remorseful, becomes a vampire while Angel who still didn't get it becomes a human). The latter is not so keen when Angel has to give up his humanity. (And I'm really responding to fans who thought it was great that Angel became human and wanted him to stay that way -- a desire that requires that you miss things like the fact that souled Angel can be meaningfully compared to soulless gunn.)
I'm also not sure I'm convinced that a soulless vampire can still want good ends, but be entirely unable to see that there's a problem with killing innocent humans. Season 5/6 Spike was a good example of a soulless vampire who wants good ends (basically) but who has a very flawed understanding of how to get there. The differences are more subtle. Here we get bludgeoned with it. And I really never knew quite what to make of it. (Gunn isn't stupid, but he'd have to be to not notice the contradictions. The people who are evil in the cause of good are interesting because their actions are not so obviously evil that they can't deceive themselves about the evil.)
I like the smaller things you point to, though. Using the Fish and his underlings, for example. That is classic doing evil in the cause of good stuff. And it's much like Angel.
On to your next. BTW, I really, really appreciate this!!