Spike was used in Season 5 as a mirror for Angel. Angel's disdain for him was exactly because Spike is very threatening to Angel. Spike sought his soul; Angel didn't. (This is huge: Spike isn't wrestling with Spikelus. Angel's whole problem is that Angelus would never, ever, seek a soul -- and that's why Angel is always divided within himself). Spike has actually made the big sacrifice; Angel hasn't. Spike arrives off of big sacrifice when Angel has just sold out to W&H. I love the whole dynamic. Oh, yeah, souled-Spike puts a dent in Angel's "it's all about me" schtick.
Also interesting to the dynamic is that Spike really doesn't see what Angel's problem is with him. And he looks up to Angel. He really does think that Angel has more experience with the champion thing; and in any case Angel will always be the alpha. Spike therefore wants Angel's approval and follows Angel's lead. Ironic because Spike's moral compass is truer than Angel's, and Spike has the big advantage of having fought for his soul as a demon. Of course he snarks about it and rails about it. But mostly because he wants approval that isn't going to be forthcoming because Angel is actually quite jealous.
But they had moved. And this is where I get a disconnect. First, I'm not sure that Lynch understands just how much the contrast with Spike wounds Angel. Second, he doesn't seem to account for the fact that Angel had grown enough to grudgingly accept Spike's status as a champion. The snark had much less edge in the second half of season 5. So when we get dumped into AtF, we find an Angel who is capable of assuming that Spike has fallen off the wagon, or at least of acting like he's assuming that. Now, that could be really interesting if we think of it as a reflection of Angel's massive guilt in the wake of Hell-A. But I never got convinced that Lynch intended us to see it that way. I didn't see where attention was called to Angel's regression on all of this.
And as a Spike-centric soul, I was very disappointed that we didn't follow up on his (and Wesley's) reaction to Drogyn's murder. I wanted to know how Spike would deal with his loyalty to Angel (and his deference to him as an alpha) when he caught a glimpse for himself of the fact that Angel's moral compass was off even when he decided to fight against W&H. At that point room opened up for Spike to start to dope out for himself what it means to be a hero, rather than take his bearings from Angel. And interesting potential dynamic there.
But see, this is where the fact that I don't think Lynch knows how morally muddy Angel really is comes into play. Drogyn just never got mentioned. And Lindsey got written off. The mindwipe bothers no one. I can supply a lot of subtext and make things work. But I really didn't see anything in the text that supports that there's an undercurrent between Spike and Angel over the question of whether Angel is the one with the best understanding of what is or isn't "right". Plenty that Angel might be ineffectual because he doesn't know enough (didn't see that LA could be sent to hell as a response to his actions; didn't see that he was jeopardizing Spike's operation at the mansion). But nothing about his compass being off. Let me know if I missed that. I get that from Angel's POV, Angel wouldn't necessarily see the regression (or the reason for the regression). But I want some way of knowing that the author has distance from that perspective.
Does Illyria really have any essence of Fred? Memories, yes. But Spike said in season 5 that there was no Fred in her. I assume we are to understand his project as giving space for a monster, who has something to work with because of the memories.
(Sidebar: Illyria's possession of Fred's memories are important in shaping our notion that she can be more than just a God-thing. But why are we also supposed to think that the mindwipe didn't matter. Especially when it comes to how we are to understand Connor's present identity.)
Thanks again for this. You are right that Lynch has something to say about these characters. I've registered the places where I think it's off or where I want more. But you let me appreciate more than I did. That's good.
Re: Angel...-and Spike
Spike was used in Season 5 as a mirror for Angel. Angel's disdain for him was exactly because Spike is very threatening to Angel. Spike sought his soul; Angel didn't. (This is huge: Spike isn't wrestling with Spikelus. Angel's whole problem is that Angelus would never, ever, seek a soul -- and that's why Angel is always divided within himself). Spike has actually made the big sacrifice; Angel hasn't. Spike arrives off of big sacrifice when Angel has just sold out to W&H. I love the whole dynamic. Oh, yeah, souled-Spike puts a dent in Angel's "it's all about me" schtick.
Also interesting to the dynamic is that Spike really doesn't see what Angel's problem is with him. And he looks up to Angel. He really does think that Angel has more experience with the champion thing; and in any case Angel will always be the alpha. Spike therefore wants Angel's approval and follows Angel's lead. Ironic because Spike's moral compass is truer than Angel's, and Spike has the big advantage of having fought for his soul as a demon. Of course he snarks about it and rails about it. But mostly because he wants approval that isn't going to be forthcoming because Angel is actually quite jealous.
But they had moved. And this is where I get a disconnect. First, I'm not sure that Lynch understands just how much the contrast with Spike wounds Angel. Second, he doesn't seem to account for the fact that Angel had grown enough to grudgingly accept Spike's status as a champion. The snark had much less edge in the second half of season 5. So when we get dumped into AtF, we find an Angel who is capable of assuming that Spike has fallen off the wagon, or at least of acting like he's assuming that. Now, that could be really interesting if we think of it as a reflection of Angel's massive guilt in the wake of Hell-A. But I never got convinced that Lynch intended us to see it that way. I didn't see where attention was called to Angel's regression on all of this.
And as a Spike-centric soul, I was very disappointed that we didn't follow up on his (and Wesley's) reaction to Drogyn's murder. I wanted to know how Spike would deal with his loyalty to Angel (and his deference to him as an alpha) when he caught a glimpse for himself of the fact that Angel's moral compass was off even when he decided to fight against W&H. At that point room opened up for Spike to start to dope out for himself what it means to be a hero, rather than take his bearings from Angel. And interesting potential dynamic there.
But see, this is where the fact that I don't think Lynch knows how morally muddy Angel really is comes into play. Drogyn just never got mentioned. And Lindsey got written off. The mindwipe bothers no one. I can supply a lot of subtext and make things work. But I really didn't see anything in the text that supports that there's an undercurrent between Spike and Angel over the question of whether Angel is the one with the best understanding of what is or isn't "right". Plenty that Angel might be ineffectual because he doesn't know enough (didn't see that LA could be sent to hell as a response to his actions; didn't see that he was jeopardizing Spike's operation at the mansion). But nothing about his compass being off. Let me know if I missed that. I get that from Angel's POV, Angel wouldn't necessarily see the regression (or the reason for the regression). But I want some way of knowing that the author has distance from that perspective.
Does Illyria really have any essence of Fred? Memories, yes. But Spike said in season 5 that there was no Fred in her. I assume we are to understand his project as giving space for a monster, who has something to work with because of the memories.
(Sidebar: Illyria's possession of Fred's memories are important in shaping our notion that she can be more than just a God-thing. But why are we also supposed to think that the mindwipe didn't matter. Especially when it comes to how we are to understand Connor's present identity.)
Thanks again for this. You are right that Lynch has something to say about these characters. I've registered the places where I think it's off or where I want more. But you let me appreciate more than I did. That's good.