On this we actually agree. I'm post-Spuffy too. Like you, I don't see the character of Buffy in a long term romantic relationship - something Buffy has actually come to terms with as have both Angel and Spike. Buffy riding off into the sunset with Spike never quite worked for me. In some ways I find it far more interesting that they didn't do that.
What I want is the exact same thing you do in regards to that in BS8. I am not sure, however, that I share your confidence that Whedon will do it, I hope he will - but I'm not sure if he sees it much the same way he saw Cordy and Angel in what he told Lynch - which was Cordy's arc was completed, don't bring her back unless absolutely necessary.
Your remark that Lynch doesn't understand Spuffy is alarming because, of course, it's central to how one understands Spike.
I think from Lynch's pov, Spuffy made Spike less cool, weak, and not the snarky cool guy.
I don't agree with that pov. But having read one of comics outside of the Whedonverse by Lynch - the guy likes his characters snarky, his dames either tough or damsely. Depth isn't his strong-suit. He tends to be very pulpy as a writer. His Spike comics are actually the best ones.
I have read all of Lynch's Spike stuff. I did like Asylum very much. With an important caveat. It seemed off about where Spike is vis a vis Angel, depending on where in the season 5 arc you thought it was.
My guess is that it was shortly after Smile Time - due to Lorne references and references to Smile Time, but I could be wrong.
Minor caveats were that I don't see Spike as someone who is a braggart about sex. There were the teeniest hints of that in Lynch's earlier Spike work, it became very much a nails on the chalk board thing for me here.
How so on the sex part? Do you mean locker room bragging? As guys do about women they've shagged? I think most men do that and that's a guy thing. Lynch probably does it and is projecting. Let's face it men can be pigs. Hee.
Would Spike? Well, we know he has issues with the ladies. In fact the man not only loves women, but they are his achillees heel. And women love him. Also he is a bit of a (excuse the term) pig at times - this was established on both shows. And as a vampire has no inhibitions. I can see him bragging about sex. He likes to brag. That was his intro in School Hard: "I don't like to brag...what am I talking about, I loooove to brag." But in the bragging he makes fun of himself.
Spike is the opposite of Angel in this regard, he brags, he chats, he talks, he likes being around people, and he makes fun of himself and things in general verbally. Angel isn't a verbal character. Spike is. In Buffy's dream - she says to Angel - we were never very good at talking. That's because Angel isn't into to talking about things. Spike - Angel comments in ATF - talks all the time, when he doesn't have his cigarettes or something. He also says it in Angel S5.
Lynch does love Spike (and I know he does), he's not leading me to deeper insights or understandings about the character I adore.
Well, I agree, nothing "deep". We've gotten more guilt. And we've gotten more self-loathing. But nothing clear-cut. Nothing worth analyzing. But he hasn't done it for any of the characters. And I'm not sure Whedon's doing it either on BS8 at the moment.
I have a rather visceral reaction to the idea that Angel is the sort of guy who would jump from a 10-story building to help someone, while Spike would take an elevator.
I saw it as pragmatic and smart. And Angel's action as deeply stupid. Angel broke his back in the fall. Spike is in some respects a little more pragmatic. He also learns from his mistakes - something Whedon pointed out, while Angel seems to keep making the same ones over and over again.
If I were Spike, I'd have taken the elevator. Jumping off the building could cause problems - you might land in the wrong place, it would hurt (they still get hurt, just heal fast), and he wouldn't have the element of surprise. Plus, reluctant hero - part of him is thinking, this hell, dammit, why am I bothering? A perfectly rational response.
Re: I'll try but with the following caveat.
This might be a difference: I'm post-Spuffy.
On this we actually agree. I'm post-Spuffy too. Like you, I don't see the character of Buffy in a long term romantic relationship - something Buffy has actually come to terms with as have both Angel and Spike. Buffy riding off into the sunset with Spike never quite worked for me. In some ways I find it far more interesting that they didn't do that.
What I want is the exact same thing you do in regards to that in BS8.
I am not sure, however, that I share your confidence that Whedon will do it, I hope he will - but I'm not sure if he sees it much the same way he saw Cordy and Angel in what he told Lynch - which was Cordy's arc was completed, don't bring her back unless absolutely necessary.
Your remark that Lynch doesn't understand Spuffy is alarming because, of course, it's central to how one understands Spike.
I think from Lynch's pov, Spuffy made Spike less cool, weak, and not the snarky cool guy.
I don't agree with that pov. But having read one of comics outside of the Whedonverse by Lynch - the guy likes his characters snarky, his dames either tough or damsely. Depth isn't his strong-suit. He tends to be very pulpy as a writer. His Spike comics are actually the best ones.
I have read all of Lynch's Spike stuff. I did like Asylum very much. With an important caveat. It seemed off about where Spike is vis a vis Angel, depending on where in the season 5 arc you thought it was.
My guess is that it was shortly after Smile Time - due to Lorne references and references to Smile Time, but I could be wrong.
Minor caveats were that I don't see Spike as someone who is a braggart about sex. There were the teeniest hints of that in Lynch's earlier Spike work, it became very much a nails on the chalk board thing for me here.
How so on the sex part? Do you mean locker room bragging? As guys do about women they've shagged? I think most men do that and that's a guy thing. Lynch probably does it and is projecting. Let's face it men can be pigs. Hee.
Would Spike? Well, we know he has issues with the ladies. In fact the man not only loves women, but they are his achillees heel. And women love him.
Also he is a bit of a (excuse the term) pig at times - this was established on both shows. And as a vampire has no inhibitions. I can see him bragging about sex. He likes to brag. That was his intro in School Hard: "I don't like to brag...what am I talking about, I loooove to brag." But in the bragging he makes fun of himself.
Spike is the opposite of Angel in this regard, he brags, he chats, he talks, he likes being around people, and he makes fun of himself and things in general verbally. Angel isn't a verbal character. Spike is.
In Buffy's dream - she says to Angel - we were never very good at talking.
That's because Angel isn't into to talking about things. Spike - Angel comments in ATF - talks all the time, when he doesn't have his cigarettes or something. He also says it in Angel S5.
Lynch does love Spike (and I know he does), he's not leading me to deeper insights or understandings about the character I adore.
Well, I agree, nothing "deep". We've gotten more guilt.
And we've gotten more self-loathing. But nothing clear-cut. Nothing worth analyzing. But he hasn't done it for any of the characters. And I'm not sure Whedon's doing it either on BS8 at the moment.
I have a rather visceral reaction to the idea that Angel is the sort of guy who would jump from a 10-story building to help someone, while Spike would take an elevator.
I saw it as pragmatic and smart. And Angel's action as deeply stupid. Angel broke his back in the fall. Spike is in some respects a little more pragmatic. He also learns from his mistakes - something Whedon pointed out, while Angel seems to keep making the same ones over and over again.
If I were Spike, I'd have taken the elevator. Jumping off the building could cause problems - you might land in the wrong place, it would hurt (they still get hurt, just heal fast), and he wouldn't have the element of surprise. Plus, reluctant hero - part of him is thinking, this hell, dammit, why am I bothering? A perfectly rational response.
TBC because I ran out of room.