Vamps -- thanks for reading and for your comments! I think my brother (Strudel) is overly cynical. Our format may be a bit strange, but there are three voices here, not one.
I think all you say about Angel is actually right. I just think it's inflected by the things Strudel says. Angel does want to help Buffy. He has been inspired to leave the alley way. Absolutely. Yet it is also true that Angel lies to Buffy constantly. It is the case that he plays the mysterious stranger bit in a way that just is manipulative. He's in seductive mode from WTTH. The mixed messages might stem from his confusion, but part of his confusion is that he's Angelus trying to be Angel.
I think Strudel pushes it too hard, but the last line resonates for me: Angel is a hero Angelus would be proud of -- not in terms of aim, but in terms of method. You are talking about Angel's aims (his sincere aims); Strudel about how they get played out. What is great about the character is that he really is both. Your Angel and Strudel's Angel are the same guy.
Good point about the limitation of the Crush comparison. But I actually think it works. Unsouled Spike would only see the external similarities and not the way they are different. The greatness of the portrait of season 5 Spike is that he's aping good behavior that he doesn't understand. See Triangle where he wants props for not dining on the victims. He's so confused then. (Interesting that for both vamps the complexity drives from their effort to reconcile their core beings with their aspirations. Angel has the aspiration implanted with the soul, and has difficulty navigating things because he jumps to identifying with the aspiration and doesn't fully realize how much of himself isn't playing on that team; Spike internally adopts the aspiration, but without the soul he doesn't fully understand (or understand at all) what the aspiration is. All of this should tell you why I think the vampires are an essential part of the show -- their issues are so interesting!)
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Date: 2010-09-14 06:11 pm (UTC)I think all you say about Angel is actually right. I just think it's inflected by the things Strudel says. Angel does want to help Buffy. He has been inspired to leave the alley way. Absolutely. Yet it is also true that Angel lies to Buffy constantly. It is the case that he plays the mysterious stranger bit in a way that just is manipulative. He's in seductive mode from WTTH. The mixed messages might stem from his confusion, but part of his confusion is that he's Angelus trying to be Angel.
I think Strudel pushes it too hard, but the last line resonates for me: Angel is a hero Angelus would be proud of -- not in terms of aim, but in terms of method. You are talking about Angel's aims (his sincere aims); Strudel about how they get played out. What is great about the character is that he really is both. Your Angel and Strudel's Angel are the same guy.
Good point about the limitation of the Crush comparison. But I actually think it works. Unsouled Spike would only see the external similarities and not the way they are different. The greatness of the portrait of season 5 Spike is that he's aping good behavior that he doesn't understand. See Triangle where he wants props for not dining on the victims. He's so confused then. (Interesting that for both vamps the complexity drives from their effort to reconcile their core beings with their aspirations. Angel has the aspiration implanted with the soul, and has difficulty navigating things because he jumps to identifying with the aspiration and doesn't fully realize how much of himself isn't playing on that team; Spike internally adopts the aspiration, but without the soul he doesn't fully understand (or understand at all) what the aspiration is. All of this should tell you why I think the vampires are an essential part of the show -- their issues are so interesting!)