After After the Fall

[maggie2]

This is not a wrap up of After the Fall.  Nor is it a continuation of the many rants I've ranted about After the Fall.  It's got a few criticisms in there (cause I just can't help myself), but mostly this is a meditation on why I have gotten so negative about a work that actually isn't the worst piece of fiction ever written.  It helped me to work this through and it might be of interest to some cause it has reflections on the status of an author tapped to continue a fictional universe created by someone else.

 

It’s finally over.   #17 was a good way to wrap things off and had some good moments.   It’s getting a well-deserved good reception.

 

But, alas, praising AtF is not my particular strength. As I’ve made clear in various rantings in my own comment sections and in other people’s comment sections, I’m not, to put it mildly, a fan of either Lynch or AtF.  There’s no point in re-hashing all of that, and in any case at this point what is more mysterious to me is why I can only read Lynch’s stuff anymore in pure bashing mode. Because while I think I have real valid criticisms, it’s just not all that bad. I can see that. But my negative is pushed on so strong that even the good stuff irritates me because it’s one less stick I can use to bash the poor guy with.

 

So what the heck is my problem? Before getting to that, I do want to make three general criticisms, sort of a “needs improvement” section for Brian.

 

1. The book was too cluttered with characters.   There was a lot of story to tell and character to develop and it just didn’t help to have to spend pages on so many characters, many of whom appear to be in the book for the sole purpose of giving something to the fans who said “I sure hope character X shows up.”

 

2. There’s too much telling and not enough showing. There are many reasons I don’t attempt fanfic, but the big one is I’d be all about the telling. But good writing is about the showing. Here we get explanations for how the dragon got its name, or why people are feeling what they’re feeling and so on. I know it can be shown cause other writers do a better job of showing rather than telling.

 

3. A series of minor annoyances: Lynch’s pet locutions show up in the dialogue of multiple characters (from most to least: Betta George, Connor, Gunn, Angel, Spike);  dialogue is often out-of-character for the sake of squeezing in a joke; a lot of the characters’ sense of humor is shifted over towards Lynch’s sense of humor. (Though how hard is it to not just write in another voice, but with a different sense of humor?) There are places where he hits the characters’ voices well. Lynch is well away from the school of writing that says that if you give Spike enough ‘bloodies’ and ‘soddings’ you’ve captured his voice. But I just wanted to say once that while it’s often good, it’s not pitch perfect – and not all that close to pitch perfect either – at least not to my demanding ears.

 

OK. All of that would be forgiven in a heartbeat if I were on board with the project. And if I were on board with the project I could give a list of good things: an interesting plot, some effective emotional moments, moments of characterization that are insightful or at least engaging, a few good call backs to the series that gave things a bit of depth,. (A special shout out to two that show up in #17: Spike’s promise to kill Angel if he has to, calling back both Cordy and Wes of season 1; the improvement in Angel’s bedside manner when visiting friends who have harmed his son.)

 

But I really am not on board with the project. And I think unfortunately the fact that Brian is not the creator of this verse, and that AtF is not being closely supervised by the creator of the verse gives me more room to worry about and complain about choices Brian makes, because I react to him more like he’s another fan and less like he’s the creator of characters that I love.  

 

The show has an active and on-going fandom because the ‘verse has so many different layers and meanings. And that means among other things that there’s lots of debate between fans who emphasize one set of meanings and fans who emphasize a different set of meanings. In my post about multiple motivations I point out that Buffy’s swan dive in The Gift can be read as heroic, or as suicidal, or as a glorious mix of the two.   In a lot of the controversies that result, fans get particularly attached to one set of readings as against another. I like reading Buffy’s jump as a mix of motives, but I tend to accent the suicidal. I do that because I think the vision of heroism she was trying to live is actually dessicating, and I love reading her story as a commentary on a bad concept of how to be a hero.   (To be clear: it’s not that she isn’t a hero – she is; it’s that she aspires to live by heroic standards that are inhuman and which must inevitably destroy her). So if Buffy got handed off to a writer who really hates the reading of Buffy’s jump as having at least a tinge of suicide to it, I’d find it really annoying. And incomplete. And less. Just as it would be less if I got a hold of the verse and overemphasized the stuff I care about, but at the expense of shedding the text of the multiple meanings it carries.

 

In the case of AtF, my problem is that I was vested in an interpretation of Angel and especially the final episode, NFA, that Brian just doesn’t share.  I think of Angel  as Angelus cursed by a soul; rather than as Angel cursed by a demon. On my reading, Angel is a mask. What’s noble about Angel is that he picks the mask of what he wants to be, despite the fact that his deepest self, his Angelus self is not redeemable. Angel can’t escape Angelus, and that’s his tragedy. Season 5 is the last big epic chapter of Angel’s tragedy. Suffering tends to bring out the Angelus in him, and at the end of season 4 we got the mother of all Angelus-like moves from Angel when he sold out to Wolfram and Hart and mind wiped his friends in order to spare his son from a truly tragic fate. It’s so classic: the good intentions that come from the Angel side of the man; with the truly reprehensible methods coming from the Angelus side of the man.   By the time Angel realizes how far he has fallen, his only way back out is to take a series of actions which arguably just compound the original sin: he kills an innocent man, orders the cold-blooded execution of another, and leads his team into a suicidal mission that by his own reckoning cannot have any meaningful impact on the world.   It’s really dark, and really bleak, and incredibly great because as horrifying as Angel can be, he can also be amazing. His capacity for good and evil is epic, and that’s what makes him so compelling. A modern call back to the grand characters of literature and myth.

 

Well, there are a lot of fans who’d rather read Angel as a good guy who sometimes gets possessed by this evil guy named Angelus; and who makes a few mistakes but is basically a hero; that what he does is heroic because he does what heroes do; and that the compelling part of Angel’s story is that for all the good he tries to do in the world he (a) is never going to forgive himself for the stuff Angelus did, even though he should and (b) is the victim of an epically bad run of luck, what with having his son kidnapped, and then going bad and all that.   This reading typically comes with a lot of justification about what people are permitted to do when they are being pounded on by fate and/or what they are justified in doing in the cause of fighting evil. 

 

Although I strongly prefer my reading to this other one, I think the real brilliance of AtS in general and NFA in particular is that both readings are there. It’s that same dizzying dissonance you get when you think about Buffy’s jump.   It’s so true to the human condition where we can be the as noble as angels or as vile as beasts, often at the same time; and true to a human condition where our finite perspective shapes what we see. Is this someone we like? We see the good. Is it someone we don’t? We see the bad. (This whole dissertation is because I’m in the mode of not liking Lynch and therefore seeing the bad. I can see it’s a finite perspective, but it’s my finite perspective and I’m stuck with it.)  

candleanfeather keeps using the word “polysemic” to describe the ‘verse: it has multiple meanings. That’s its essential feature.

But part of the fun is arguing with others in favor of our own meanings and against theirs. And my problem with AtF is that Lynch seems to emphasize the set of meanings that I’d like to treat as secondary. And worse, unlike all the other fans I get to argue with on a level footing, he gets the keys to the kingdom and gets to write the “canonical” continuation of the show in a way that canonizes the meaning I don’t like and marginalizes (at best) the meaning I find most compelling.   That’s why I move from justifiable criticisms (like the ones listed above, or the general one that he’s depriving the ‘verse of its multiple meanings and layers) to a generic stance of just not liking anything about the work at all.  I’m a sore loser. It’s bad enough that meanings are being stripped away; unforgiveable that the ones being stripped away are the ones I am invested in.

 

There is an utterly related phenomenon having to do with how Lynch writes my favorite character Spike. Spike is a character who can be read in highly divergent ways – he’s easily the most polarizing character in the ‘verse. Lynch actually likes Spike. I have no doubt about that. But he’s only got a Spike with some of Spike’s layers and meanings; and the ones he’s dropped are the ones I’m particularly attached to. In fanfic it’s a given that you are going to get these sorts of partial meanings and interpretations of a character. They are often quite delightful, all these different Spikes. But none of them have the status of being a “canonical” continuation of the character. And it’s enraging to see some guy who doesn’t seem to have any loftier artistic vision than the typical fan get the right to install his finite readings of my favorite character into canon. 

 

So I think this is what drives my rejection of AtF. Brian doesn’t see things the way I do, and I don’t see why he should have more standing than any other fan to legislate his perspective into “canon”. With Joss, it’s different. I might not always agree with Joss’s choices. But (a) they are his characters and (b) he delivers work that is capable of multiple readings. Just check out the fierce debates about whether or not Buffy the Bank Robber is a completely organic development in the saga of Buffy the Vampire Slayer or (more importantly) whether or not it’s a good evolution for her, or an understandable one, or one that’s not a good evolution but understandable, or one that is flat out repulsive.  Whatever you want to say on behalf of AtF (and there ARE things to be said on its behalf), it hasn’t generated anything like the dispute about interpretation that season 8 generates. That’s because it’s not as polysemic as an authentically Jossian work.

 

Sidebar: it’s worth noting that Joss made a remark in one of the recent interviews about Dollhouse that the show can be read as a feminist text AND as a misogynistic text and that it’s intentional that it should have both meanings.   If I heard that right, it explains a lot – not least of which is that the question of whether The Chosen was sufficiently feminist in its meaning really is an intentionally open question.  In any case, like I said, the key characteristic of the ‘verse is that it’s meant to be polysemic. (I love that word. I’ve tried to say it at least once every few days since Candleanfeather sprang it on me).

 

A final word is that Brian compounds the problem for me by interacting with us “fans” on the internet. He spends a LOT of time on-line soaking up feedback. He visibly desires and seeks out positive strokes. And he gets quite prickly and sometimes even nasty if the feedback he gets is not so friendly.   I think what happens is that Brian wants the status of being the creator, but a lot of fans like me are reacting to him as though he is just one of many other fans. He claims a certain infallibility for himself since he’s the writer, but he’s not a writer playing in his own ‘verse – he’s playing in a ‘verse that we’ve all been invited to play in and which we have been playing in for some time. He has a right, obviously, to tell the story he wants to tell. But when he gets snippy and huffy in response to people who don’t’ see the characters the same way he does, well, it just exacerbates my feeling that I don’t like the guy or his work. And it’s too bad – since people I respect obviously find much to appreciate in AtF. Maybe someday, when I have more distance, I will too.

Comments

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Funny post, thanks.

I do really and well and truly get the problem on this. As a latecomer on DVD, I didn't have to live through the parade of writers saying mule, mule, mule about what is obviously an ox, but I know that they've said crap like that. I honestly and truly don't know what to make of it -- especially in season 6 when they apparently all sounded so earnest about it. It's just... that the readings in the opposite direction so often look so carefully done.

Am deleting an excessively long reply on this. I assume you're talking about (season 6 is about having sex with a bad boy and we know that never turns out well; and Spike must be evil since he has no soul and we'll prove it to you in SR). It's weird and I get that they all looked real earnest in their claims about what they thought they were doing. But the stuff that would make season 6 look much more ox-like to me isn't in there by accident. You don't accidentally show a shockingly brutal scene of your heroine doing something to her lover that could not possibly have been filmed if the hero had been doing it to his lover. Or if you do, and you still expect your audience to think that this is a story about bad evil boyfriends, you are just intensely stupid. But if you're intensely stupid how did you cough up a series that gets lots of serious people to spend a lot of time thinking about it seriously? I don't really want to go out on a limb and say that someone in charge is lying about intention, but this show and makes it cross my mind as a possibility.

Season 6 might be the one place where they really meant it, bizarre though that is. But this reading against text and against the surface is built in from the start. This is a show where one of the main themes is that things are not always what they seem. It's there from the start, not just creeping in later when things get wobbly. The idea of the show, Joss tells us, is what if the small blonde girl in the opening scene doesn't get eaten by the monster, but instead kicks its ass. That's reverse expectation for sure. That's what he told us. But the opening scene of the show isn't of Buffy not getting eaten by the monster. It's of Darla. So the small blonde girl isn't the munchee, as the horror genre conventions would dictate; nor is she the vampire slayer that the show's title and Joss's mission statement would lead you to expect. She's the monster herself. And more, she's the monster who is the former lover of the lover that the vampire slayer is going to take. So Joss tells us that he wants to cut against our expectations; and then he cuts against the expectations we would have formed based on his claim that he's going to cut against our expectations. I dunno. I tend to take that as official license to find meaning in the text on our own -- you know, to grow up as Joss keeps telling us and stop looking to authority figures (or storytellers) to tell us what to think of things. The guys an existentialist. I find it hard to believe that's not exactly what he's been up to since the beginning.

(And it's so not normal for me to think wacky things like this. This is the only show that has pulled this kind of reaction out of me.) So you know what? If it's just an accident and the folks at ME are just majorly incompetent at laying down the straight-forward message of the week that we're supposed to take home it's a lovely accident. And I kind of would rather attend to that than to the yahoos who happened to be around when that bizarre accident spilled onto our screens.

And that got long again. I think what you think about 30% of the time. 30% of the time I think what I just said. And 40% of the time I decide it's too complicated to figure it out and I curse the friend who insisted that I watch the show in the first place.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Brian most certainly did things that weren't dictated (or even liked) by Joss

Anything in particular you were thinking of? The "liked" part struck me a bit since I wasn't aware of Joss speaking against AtF. He seems to have taken a 'mum's the word' stance on the subject after saying "Good luck!"

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Cheers, Maggie. Where do I buy a yearlong pass for this train I'm riding with you?

My problem is that I'm very able to enjoy reading After the Fall in the moment. And it is a great story. But when I put my critical thinking cap on, things start to go awry. It seems like your critical thinking cap is on the moment you open the book. For me, I find great satisfaction from the reading of AtF, but less so as I try to incorporate it into the greater AtS story.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

This reminds me of Joss' reaction to people reading the Buffy/Faith subtext. He literally said "nuh uh" and told them they were reading lesbian subtext where none existed. The fans directed him to their detailed analysis of Season 3 episodes and he came back later to apologize. Admitting he was wrong and was completely blind to the subtext he'd written. But awesomely enough, he admitted it. It was on a recent NPR interview I just listened to this evening.

[next_to_normal]

Well, the "liked" is sort of my interpretation, but Brian mentioned that Joss basically said, "Don't bring Cordelia back," and then Brian did it anyway. Granted, he didn't "bring her back" as in resurrect her, but she does make a pretty significant appearance, which seemed to be contradictory to what Joss wanted. (He thought her exit was big and complete, and there wasn't a further story to tell with her.)

I highly doubt that Joss would come out and say he disagreed with anything Brian did in ATF, though. If he didn't like it, he'd probably just stew quietly (and maybe refuse to work with him on the Spike series).

[next_to_normal]

Sorry, I can't point you to any ATF debates, because I haven't been following them. I would guess the Whedonesque threads or IDW - they have a forum, right? As I've said, that doesn't really matter to me - I'm not reading ATF for debate. I'm reading it for entertainment. (I didn't watch the show for the debate, either, though I've found it interesting after the fact. I watched the entirety of both series before I ever set foot in an internet discussion.)

I do recall seeing debates about whether Spike would really have turned Angel, but when it comes to the comics (both season 8 and ATF), I only really see what shows up in my flist.

[candleanfeather.livejournal.com]

B. Lynch's status in regard to the verse is hard to define.
Technically speaking he is a writer and an author, but as you said yourself:
- he plays with someone's else creation
- he isn't integrated in JW's staff, nor does he work under JW's control (in spite of some input) or this of any of the original creators
- Atf is canon but isn't season 6 either...

As for B Lynch's attitude,if irritating for some of its aspects, after seing him in his interview, I'd look at it with some indulgence. He seems to be, I could be wrong of course, a very young person and author, probably not so sure of himself, of his strengths as a writer as he appears or tries to appear to be, and as someone who has put much work and love in what he has done is hurt by negative remarks. So yes, for the moment being, B Lynch's approach to fans isn't one of a confirmed professionnal but he is probably learning. His talent has to mature, gain depth and texture,he has to learn to cut on certain self indulgences in his writing, but these lacks I see as these pertaining to someone who is at the beginning of his career and is learning.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I can't point you to any ATF debates

There haven't been many AtF debates and if there have been, it's occurred mostly on the IDW discussion board. Most of the topics of discussion have revolved around whether the dialogue/action was in character, the art which yo-yo'd from atrociously slapped together to amazingly beautiful towards the end, and the baffling structure of the story.

Actually, the most vocal and impassioned discussions revolved around art issues and the odd placement of First Night. Most other posts that I've followed since the beginning were singing the comics praises. But no deep thought here. No ambiguity of interpretation.

The biggest topics of discussion have been complaints over likenesses, story structure and lack of character arcs for all involved.

The problem is that After the Fall wasn't asking a question the way Season 8 did. Season 8 asks what are the consequences of Chosen, was the Slayer Spell the right thing to do, are the Slayers making a difference in the world for the better. After the Fall's main goal is to answer a question - what happens after Not Fade Away. In this regard, the interpretation of the story is incredibly simplistic. Lynch doesn't ask questions through the story, he answers them.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Lynch shows us what happens to the characters and where they're at emotionally. He tells us a story of character interaction/attachment and of Angel's triumph over W&H. The one lesson I'm taking from this is that even when evil has you outgunned, overflowing with guilt, you can't let it stop you. Keep moving forward and be ready to sacrifice yourself for the greater good. Oh, and that you can accomplish much with your friends by your side. In summation, it feels slightly like an after-school-special. I'm left wondering if Hell was indeed Hellish enough.

Angel's being turned human still feels like a wasted opportunity to me considering we were being told the story through Angel's viewpoint. The closest we got to self-reflection on his state was in the early issues when he tells Wes that W&H thinks they've changed him, but they're wrong. That in itself exemplifies the over-simplification of the narrative to me. That Angel (and perhaps Lynch) actually thinks that human!Angel and souledvampire!Angel are exactly the same except the latter possesses only physical limitations.

Gunn's arc remains the most satisfying to me, followed by Connor's growth and Illyria's confused state. And I know Lynch hates being asked where Joss' hand touched the piece, but it seems clear that vampire!Gunn and Connor being a lead came from Joss. Sadly, one of the few prospective storylines from Season 6 that never got incorporated into AtF was the interaction between Wes and Illyria - that Wes would be forced to choose between Illyria and Fred somehow after becoming even closer to Illyria. This role seems to have been inherited by Spike, when all I really wanted was to see more Angel/Spike interaction continue and we finally got that in a satisfying degree in #17. Wes and Lorne are sadly left to do little, while Nina fades in and out of obscurity making me wonder why they bothered to include her...again, until her scene in #17.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree with your assessment of Lynch. And we're not the easiest fandom to work with. I imagine it was really hard for him to adjust at first being dropped into the canon pool without Joss as a life-raft and stalwart partner working on the piece. If he's defensive now, it's because he's felt the need to defend himself as fans fight over the canon status of his work and Joss watches (or perhaps doesn't even watch) from afar in silence.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on Cordelia's appearance. Though I wonder if Joss meant don't bring her back to life most specifically. I think her appearance worked well enough as she was more a spiritual guide hoping to help Angel cross over, so her interaction wasn't too jarring. Ultimately though, I think Joss would be against Cordelia being there to always comfort Angel with "a warm breeze" everytime he was being too pessimistic. The 'she'll always be there for him' is taken way too literally here. It runs counter to my understanding of the afterlife in the 'verse and the stance that people need to learn to accept the death of loved ones and grieve. That death is very realistic in the 'verse until the character is transformed magically into another being (vampire) or resurrected to their former state (Buffy, Darla, Spike). But when they're gone, they're truly gone.

The Cordy appearance worked for me because it felt a bit like the Darla appearance from Inside Out. When the stakes are that high, the PTB have been shown to send an emissary to help and try to influence free will.

[next_to_normal]

The problem is that After the Fall wasn't asking a question the way Season 8 did.

Well... yeah. It never claimed to be asking questions. It was basically a resolution to a "cliffhanger" ending that Joss didn't believe was really a cliffhanger at all. Fans wanted to know what happened next, and Brian gave us the answers. To some extent it raises the question of whether Angel was right to do this - was it worth it? - and the answer probably varies depending on your view. But it wasn't intended to be anything more than a limited-run series, so it's not going to explore the depth of issues that you'd see in a TV series, or even the season 8 comics, which at this point are sprawling on into infinity.

I guess I just don't understand getting upset about it. It was specifically intended to be a certain thing, which may not be the deep, meaningful text you wanted, but you can't really fault the comic for doing what it set out to do. If you don't like it, you don't like it, but it's not a failing of Brian Lynch that his vision doesn't match yours.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. I just can't emotionally go there (at least for now) because I'm not being so grown-up about this. The complaint in a nutshell is that he and I have rival views of the verse, and that whereas the show was always big enough for all sorts of views, Lynch's being handed the franchise means he gets to dictate his views to "canon" at the expense of mine. I am a sore loser. Sore losers aren't charitable to the winners. I am not charitable to Brian Lynch.

But if I can step back from that, then sure -- he'll mature as a writer. (Though he's mid-30's, I think, so not THAT young). And it's true that it would be hard to write in this situation.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you can enjoy it. I am just so very petty, that I can't. And ironically at the very very heart of it is that I just don't think he's done well by my vampire. If you take away Angel's greyness (and with it any weight to the fact that Angel was cursed with his soul), then the "whose vamp is better" game goes to Angel, no questions asked. Angel is the alpha leader (which is always true); but on this reading he is also the standard of what a champion should be -- the successful big brother that the little brother has to compete against. You can like Spike on this view, and Brian does -- and this view is clearly a part of the big picture. But you're missing the part where Angel has to learn something from Spike, becaues unlike Angel Spike was NOT cursed with a soul. In the show, Angel is all too aware of this comparison which is unfavorable to him. And that kept a balance for me. Angel is the epically large alpha leader, but morally dubious; Spike is the figure nobody sees coming, but with a much truer moral compass. The drama was whether Spike's loyalty to the alpha was going to trump his own judgments. In the end it looked like it was starting to. And the story we'll never be told is how the two of them would have worked out that dynamic. Anyway back to juvenile reactions: he took away my vampires best asset, or at least turned it into a non-issue. Then there's all the female fodder Brian's thrown at Spike, none of which does justice to the man we learned about in the Spuffy arc. And as Deborah has observed, how happy can a Spike-centric fan be with a work that inspires anti-Spike fans to thank Brian for finally showing what a total loser Spike is.

Me grumpy.

[shapinglight]

Well, most of it's slash so it may well not be your cup of tea.

And fuss away. I don't see why not. I would probably fuss a great deal more myself if I didn't feel like I have BL looking over my shoulder all the time.

Thinking back, 17 is the only issue of this comic I've unequivocally enjoyed, and any issue with Spider in it has automatically been blighted no matter how good it is otherwise.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Well... yeah.

Bwah! I'll go ahead and add the "duh" to that statement for you. ;)

It never claimed to be asking questions.

Well, see that's the problem for me here. By wearing the canon cap, it claims to be on the same level as the series.

If you don't like it, you don't like it, but it's not a failing of Brian Lynch that his vision doesn't match yours.

I actually *do* like it. As I was saying to Maggie in a post below, After the Fall is very satisfying to me on the initial read. It's action packed and has interesting character moments. The problem is that when I put on my thinking cap and try to peel back layers, all I get is the equivalent of a murky blank slate.

After the Fall entertains and makes me feel intensely. Season 8 entertains (me, at least) and makes me feel (not quite as intensely on the initial read, but later on even more so) and it makes me think deeply about the story long after the punches, kicks and tears have become a mundane part of the narrative landscape. I find them both to be very good and that each carries the strength the other story lacks. Though, to be fair to Season 8, I might feel differently once the in media res has revealed all.

I'm not that upset over it, just slowly accepting my disappointment that After the Fall doesn't attempt multiple layers of meaning. It's a good story and satisfying, but it pales in comparison to what's come before on AtS. Lynch sang a great cover of a classic song, but he didn't surpass the original and never fully overcame its derivative and self-indulgent nature. He answered questions raised by the TV series, rather than raising more of his own in his narrative. So in this regard, I view it as very good but not equal to the narrative and literary story of AtS. Limited ambition of meaning.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Very interesting points. You really nailed the dynamic between Angel and Spike - how they view each other as threatening. And you've made me realize why I didn't really enjoy the "big brother, little brother" aspect of the show (you may have noticed I failed to comment on that portion of the issue in my review on Whedonesque). It's like Lynch thought Angel and Spike were only fighting over Buffy and the Shanshu. The way he oversimplified that a romantic relationship between Illyria and Spike is impossible because Illyria's insides were liquefied. Erm, no Lynch - romance is more than sex, just ask Angel about that. Angel and Spike should always be viewed as threatening to each other because Angel is morally dubious and Spike is more morally sound. The buddy cop relationship just isn't working for me here. You've just helped me realize why.

I'd be interested to see if you have any thoughts regarding my posts above to eowyn.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Basically, my experience with AtF and Season 8 is this - When I peel back layers of Season 8 I enjoy it even more and want to come online to discuss it. When I peel back layers of AtF I get frustrated and feel no urge to discuss the series online except to complain about it. Which means that I post initial thoughts on the issues (Oh em gee, loved that line! or what a great panel of art!) and then feel no urge to go back for further discussion or consideration. Where as Season 8 inspires me to reread and theorize and evaluate intensely.

So my pleasure with AtF is fleeting. The question remains, better to have known love of AtF than to never have known it at all? Or is ignorance of this truly bliss? I'm not sure which of us is better off. At least you don't feel like you were gulled into something only to find yourself cherishing dross instead gold.

[next_to_normal]

By wearing the canon cap, it claims to be on the same level as the series.

I think that cap is still a little up for debate. I'd say it falls somewhere between canon and non-canon (if you can have a middle ground for a binary state, lol) - it's (partly) Joss' ideas and been given Joss' blessing, but it's never been given the same status as season 8. Wasn't Joss' final word on the subject, "If you want it to be canon, it is. If you don't, ignore it"?

The fact is, it isn't Joss writing it, but it is someone who's a fairly known quantity in the Buffyverse. If you know the quality of Lynch's Spike series (which were also enjoyable but didn't provoke much debate), but you expected ATF to be different simply because it had a whiff of canon, then that seems like an unrealistic expectation to me.

(And btw, when I say "you," I don't necessarily mean you specifically. I realize a lot of my previous response was directed more at Maggie's original post, but it happened to be your response I was replying to.)

As I was saying to Maggie in a post below, After the Fall is very satisfying to me on the initial read. It's action packed and has interesting character moments. The problem is that when I put on my thinking cap and try to peel back layers, all I get is the equivalent of a murky blank slate.

Yeah, and I guess my point is about being able to separate those two things in terms of quality. Maggie and I clearly have a different approach here - I don't think a show (or comic, or whatever) has to require detailed analysis in order to be good. If it's entertaining AND it provokes discussion, well, that's just a bonus. Whereas Maggie's view of ATF seems to be that she is unable to enjoy it unless it provokes discussion. If you're reading something that's not intended to be more than an action-packed story with some interesting character moments, that can only lead to disappointment.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Which is why I'm slowing coming to the realization that I need to lower my expectations for AtF and any subsequent comics. And because I'm making myself adjust in this way, I'm viewing it as less canon everyday.

If it's entertaining AND it provokes discussion, well, that's just a bonus.

I think that's why After the Fall is so enjoyable for many people who don't bother to analyze the underlying meaning. But for those of us who learned to appreciate AtS and BtVS for being able to read more deeply into it, AtF just falls short. A huge part of why I'm still a fan of the 'verse after 10 years (my god!) is that there are layers that keep you coming back for more. After the Fall fell short and I'm disappointed. But live and learn. I won't be expecting as much for the later comics (probably won't be viewing them as canon either) and I'll initially enjoy them but won't bother going too deeply into thought-mode.

But I can understand for Maggie how going into this she brought her 'verse viewing cap. It's part of what makes it the Buffyverse to her. And to find her own viewpoint denied has got to be bitter and frustrating.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Whereas Maggie's view of ATF seems to be that she is unable to enjoy it unless it provokes discussion.

Not quite. My specific lack of my enjoyment is that my side of the debates has been cut out of the picture. The point about the debates is just that in true canon, there ARE debates because everyone's view of the story has a place in the story. You could see Angel as a big honking hero OR you could see Angel as much greyer. It was a big tent, and that's part of why the show was so great. This is sub-canon to me cause it's cutting out fans like me, who want to argue about Angel being grey and who want to make a big deal about Spike's getting of the soul. AtF a small tent. And I've been kicked out. And yeah, am grumpy about it.

[next_to_normal]

My specific lack of my enjoyment is that my side of the debates has been cut out of the picture.

So, if Lynch had written your interpretation, to the exclusion of all others, you'd be happy with it?

[next_to_normal]

I think that's why After the Fall is so enjoyable for many people who don't bother to analyze the underlying meaning. But for those of us who learned to appreciate AtS and BtVS for being able to read more deeply into it, AtF just falls short.

I just can't help comparing After the Fall with season 8. IMO, they BOTH fall short (which isn't surprising, considering that BtVS and AtS are very rare in being both entertaining and polysemic), and if I have to choose, I'd choose entertaining over polysemic every time. It would be nice if more things offered both, but I am far, far from the point where I would expect it, even from a BtVS or AtS comic continuation.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

No. I'd have thought it was a lesser work. (As I did say in the original post about what would happen if I got my mitts on the 'verse). I'd not have been so grumpy of course, cause it's hard to feel as bad when other people's oxes are being gored and not yours. But it would still be a smaller tent.

On season 8, Aycheb drivers me crazy. She sees things very differently than I do. But I am very grateful that she's still in the tent. It reminds me that life is bigger than just the stuff I see. So, it'd be fun to be in a verse created in my own image, but not nearly so challenging or engaging in the long run. And not at all good for the people who got booted.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Good question about who is better off. I really wanted to enjoy AtF. And I think I'm sorry I never got a moment of appreciating what's actually there. I just deleted a bunch of how this unfolded for me. I think I'm sorry I never got to at least enjoy it on the surface. I liked #1 a good deal. But while I didn't get permanently kicked out until #6, I was uneasy in a big way at #2. So I just haven't gotten the emotional ride. And I know I'm not taking in the good stuff that is there. Hopefully at some point I will.

I liked your exchange with Eowyn -- anything in particular you wanted me to react to?