Spike and Season 8
Jan. 12th, 2009 05:27 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
maggie2
I’m under the impression that a lot of people assume that Spike will certainly not figure in season 8, and that Joss either never was interested in Spike (or Spuffy) or he views that story as settled and is just moving on. Of course, we won’t know until the tale is done, but it does seem to me that it would be very strange if the same writer who knew that Angel marked Buffy for life didn’t think that Spike, who played at least as major a role in Buffy’s story, could vanish from her story without trace. But all I want to argue for here is the proposition that based on what we have seen in the first 21 issues, there is plenty of room for Spike to enter the story, perhaps even in an important way.
Before getting to the text, it’s worth observing that Scott Allie has said (Slayalive Q&A #20, question 4) that Joss has the right to use the characters in Angel as much as he likes. There thus seems to be no contractual reason for Spike to remain offstage. All that will matter is what the story demands.
While I wouldn’t go so far as to argue that the story demands that Spike play a role, there is a fair amount of text at this point that would retrospectively set up his appearance.
1. Buffy is the main character of the series. (Duh). When last we saw her, Spike was arguably the most important person in her world – the one who was in her heart, the one with whom she shared the fiery hands of passion, the one whose name was the last word she spoke in the entire series, the one with whom she spent what could well have been her last night in the world, the one who stood by her when all her other significant folks kicked her out of her own house, etc. etc. etc. The status of Buffy’s relationship with the person who was so very important to her was left hanging at the end of the story. It matters how it is resolved. Really. Angel hung over her story for years. It’s unreasonable to think that Spike vanished without a trace in 18 months, or that the resolution of Buffy's story with Spike is insignficant.
And it’s not like the writers of season 8 are insensible of the fact that romantic story lines from season 7 need to be resolved in season 8. Pretty much the first thing we learn about Faith in #6 is that Robin ended up not surprising her – she’s still very much alone. It took a while, but we finally learn that Xander really did spend some serious time mourning Anya (#13). If Joss really wanted to close off the Spike/Buffy story line, he’d have done so much the way Faith/Robin got closed out. He didn’t.
2. On the contrary, one of the first things Joss tells us about Buffy is that she doesn’t know the significance of the Immortal to either Angel or Spike. It opens the door to the possibility that she does not know that they tried to track her down in TGIQ. Far from closing the story down, Joss offers a tantalizing detail that reminds us that we really don’t know where things stand between Buffy and Spike.
3. There is the mysterious absence of Spike from Buffy’s dream space (#3), where every other significant figure in her life is present. (With the possible exception of Hank). Angel is here, as is Riley. Tara, and Dawn, and Faith, and, Joyce, and all the major villains and the Scoobies. There are cubes from early in Buffy’s life through season 7 (Xander with an eye patch; Caleb). There are three ways I can think of to account for this fact. (a) The scenes and figures drawn were chosen by Jeanty and have no particular significance. But Enisy asked Allie about this, and Allie says that Joss did interact with Jeanty both about what should be there and about what should not be there (Slayalive Q&A #19, question 6). (b) Buffy really doesn’t see Spike as an important person in her life (beyond his usefulness in her erotic fantasies). That defies imagination. Whether it’s the fiery hands of passion or the bathroom scene, Spike has impacted Buffy enormously, both in good ways and in bad ways. (c) The absence is significant in a way that has yet to be revealed.
4. Buffy finally mentions Spike in A Beautiful Sunset sandwiched between Angel and Riley. As already noted, both Angel and Riley figured in her dream space. They’ve also both (now) appeared in the series. Angel in a nod to what lies firmly behind Buffy (#20); and Riley as either a villain or an undercover ally (#19). If two of the three major loves in Buffy’s life deserve a role in the series, it is even stranger that Joss couldn’t be arsed to close out a dangling thread about her most recent romantic involvement.
5. There are plenty of places where one can read resonances with Buffy’s history with Spike, things that could take on different shades if Spike turns out to be part of this story. In the first battle we are shown, Buffy is in a church killing a demon with a cross. The last time we saw Buffy in a church with a demon, the demon was draped on the cross in one of the most arresting images of the entire series. General Voll points to the crater at Sunnydale and says “look what she did to her hometown”. But when Buffy last had anything to say about what caused that crater, her answer was “Spike”. In Buffy’s dream about Xander, she promises to be gentle “this time”, yet knocks off Xander’s head and worries about being dark. There are resonances here with her not-so-gentle relationship with Spike, which was epitomized in the alley scene in Dead Things where she didn’t quite knock his head off. Buffy even says “oh balls” here, which is a line that comes from that scene in DT. Ethan’s entrance into her dream is teased as Spike (we just see his Spike-like clothes at the end of #2) and Buffy explicitly objects to him calling her “pet”. Skipping ahead, and going in less detail: Dracula’s relationship with Xander mirrors in some ways Spike’s relationship with Buffy (evil vampire crossing lines to help the good guys because of love); Willow tells Frey that the most important men in Buffy’s life are lurks (and that that fact makes it too simple to say that Buffy’s life is about eliminating them); and in the most recent issue we have Clem and Harmony allied, the two demons who were friendly with Spike during his time in Sunnydale. None of these allusions or references have to mean anything. But they are available to mean something if Spike turns out to figure in the story.
So we’ll see. It’s true that we’re nearly two years into the comics. But we’re also just over half way through the “season”. And in many of the seasons on Buffy, the real contours of the season aren’t revealed until the second half. It’s too soon to claim that Joss is going to pay no attention to Spike. Indeed, I tend to think that the strange absences and silences point to a larger role rather than a smaller one – since the failure to close out Spike/Buffy quickly seems to demand some sort of pay-off when the story finally is continued.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-12 11:58 pm (UTC)If Joss really wanted to close off the Spike/Buffy story line, he’d have done so much the way Faith/Robin got closed out. He didn’t.
As you pointed out, it's not like Spike hasn't been mentioned at all. Obviously, he appears in Buffy's threesome fantasies with Angel. And we did get "people who love me tend to die" with a particular reference to Spike. I wouldn't put it past Joss to think that "closes off" the Spuffy story line sufficiently - she still thinks about him occasionally, but clearly things between them are over enough that she's not going to find him or expecting him to show up, even though she apparently knows he's alive. Which brings me to point number two...
It opens the door to the possibility that she does not know that they tried to track her down in TGIQ.
According to Scott Allie, we can assume Buffy knows everything that anyone in her organization knows, including Andrew. (Personally, I think this is a ridiculous premise for a group that has been hellbent on keeping secrets from each other for seven years, but I'm not the editor.) That means she knows Spike's alive, and she knows he and Angel came to see her in Rome, and she apparently didn't do anything about it. That doesn't bode well for her still having feelings for him - and if she really is over him, then there's nothing to "close off," is there?
If two of the three major loves in Buffy’s life deserve a role in the series, it is even stranger that Joss couldn’t be arsed to close out a dangling thread about her most recent romantic involvement.
True, but Angel wasn't really there, as in his actual post-NFA (or post-ATF at this point) character showing up in the present day storyline. So even if Spike does make an appearance, there's no guarantee it will be him in the flesh and not a dream sequence or flashback or something else.
To be honest, I don't think any future appearance by Spike warrants this conspicuous absence in earlier issues. Would it be giving anything away for him to appear in her dream space? It's not like those cubes tell us how she feels about any of it, just that they're there in her mind somewhere. Would it really spoil anything to show that Buffy missed or grieved for him the way Xander mourned Anya? I think we all pretty much assume it happened (it's only natural), so it wouldn't be telling us anything we didn't sort of already know.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 12:29 am (UTC)The closing off has to be more than just a mention that Spike exists. At the ending of The Chosen, Buffy's feelings about Spike were made deliberately ambiguous. The question about Buffy's feelings have weight beyond the shipping angle. Spike represented a closure to her whole vampire arc that began when Angel went bad and concluded when Spike gives himself up to save the world. This is all about Buffy's relationship to the dark side of herself, and we need to know how Buffy felt about it if we want to understand her. (Just like it would be impossible to understand Buffy in seasons 4-7 if we didn't know how things "resolved" with Angel).
The line about the Immortal in the opening pages of LWH directly contradicts Allie. Buffy does NOT know why Andrew wanted to set the fake slayer up with the Immortal. I agree that it's more likely than not that she knows the raw fact that Spike is back. But we still don't know how she understands that fact, since she's missing at least some information. The fact that it could go either way means that the story is open. And if the story is open, that means that there's a good chance that the resolution of that story (or the revelation of exactly how that story was resolved) will play a role in season 8.
I agree that we don't know whether Spike will make a flesh and blood appearance. But I think somehow the story about him will be important. And I do think it carries weight that Joss brings Angel up specifically in the context of a past to which Buffy can't return. It tells us a bit about how to understand the cookie dough speech, for example.
My point about Spike's absence in the dream space is not that it's meant to conceal something. Just that it's distinctly odd that he's not there, and that his absence of itself could well turn out to ber significant.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 12:45 am (UTC)Oh I see it as being that Jeanty didn't want him in there (apparently he was partly responsible for what made the grade so to speak), and neither did Joss. They don't want endless reminders of how important he used to be in Buffy's life, and so after one 'bone' thrown to the fans in the form of that fantasy, that was it. They probaly thought that'll shut em up. *g*
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 12:48 am (UTC)Hmmm, maybe this is just my shipper perspective, but I don't really see that. I don't really see Spike as a resolution of Buffy's character. Her actions in season 8 have only muddied the waters in terms of her "dark side," so I think the resolution is beyond Spike at this point. If Spike were to come back, I'm sure they could use it for more than just shippy purposes, but I don't think it's necessary. I don't see any need for closure except romantically (which, honestly, I'd rather Joss stay away from. Fanfic is much more satisfying in that regard).
The line about the Immortal in the opening pages of LWH directly contradicts Allie.
Well, it certainly wouldn't be the only continuity error in the comics... In any case, either Allie's an idiot, or he's lying to us. I don't think highly of him, so I'd say either one is equally possible.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 12:52 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 12:58 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 01:02 am (UTC)I don't trust Allie and co at all I'm afraid.
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Date: 2009-01-13 01:06 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 01:10 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 02:47 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 12:59 am (UTC)If I'm Joss and I want to walk away from Spike, I wrap him up in an offhand bubble in the first issue -- the way Robin got written off. Joss didn't do that. That's pretty much my bottom line here.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 01:04 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 01:05 am (UTC)Really? How? (And I don't mean that in a snarky way. That's the first time I've ever heard anyone say that, and I'm genuinely curious.)
If I'm Joss and I want to walk away from Spike, I wrap him up in an offhand bubble in the first issue -- the way Robin got written off. Joss didn't do that.
I get that, but I'm seeing it from a much more cynical perspective - it wasn't even important enough to get an offhand bubble wrap-up. I'm not as inclined as some to think that Joss actively dislikes Spike and that's why he's being ignored, but considering the way the comic's been (mis)managed, I certainly wouldn't put it past him to forget something important like Buffy's feelings for Spike (or like, say, that Warren was dead).
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 01:11 am (UTC)Exactly.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 01:50 am (UTC)As for my reaction to Buffy robbing banks -- I have been known to complain about Buffy's handling of Spike in season 6, but have still generally thought that the one sentence description of their relationship is that Buffy inspires Spike to become a champion of the good. How does that work if Buffy herself is now much greyer than she was even in season 6? What would Spike think if he learned that Buffy was robbing banks? Would his love for her trump his own moral compass? Or would his moral compass cause him to see her in a different, more realistic light? That was a live issue in Spike's relationship to Angel (Spike followed Angel into a VERY morally ambiguous action at the end). I just find it interesting, and I want to know more.
Buffy's moral standing vis a vis the "questionable" figures of both Spike and Faith has been interesting. Season 8 has directly tackled the moral inversion between Faith and Buffy. It makes me want to know how the issue would play out between Spike and Buffy.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 02:07 am (UTC)The fact that the First can only appear as someone who's died is a pretty HUGE detail that's used in nearly every episode in season seven, sometimes as a plot line (Giles possibly being dead/the First, the First fooling them all by pretending to be Eve). I'd say that's more than a minor oversight, and the fact that Joss forgot made me lose a lot of faith. I don't expect him to be as obsessive about the show as we are, but I expect him to remember basic plot points.
Interesting thoughts re: Buffy's moral greyness. I've seen some people speculate that if Spike comes back, he'll be the one to put Buffy's actions in perspective and prompt an epiphany of sorts. That would certainly be an interesting reversal.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 02:25 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2009-01-13 02:49 am (UTC)(How's that in the cynical sweepstakes? >;)
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 02:56 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2009-01-13 03:18 am (UTC)Good, good, but no cigar yet hun. *g*
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 04:55 pm (UTC)Could be both. How do we know that Joss has ever told him whether or not Buffy knows that Spike is alive? Joss has probably just told him the basic structure of Season 8, but not the details, or everything that's planned for Season 9. Just enough that Allie smugly thinks he's "in the loop," but when you quiz him on details, he'd likely just give his opinion in order to save face and make him seem more important and knowledgeable than he really is. He's just the editor, not the writer, and he's the editor of a whole lot of other DH comics to try to keep track of. We know what Allie thinks of Spuffy, so of course THAT would be HIS opinion. And Allie never said that JOSS said that Buffy knows.
Half of everything Allie says sounds like he's talking out of his ass. If he turns out to be right on this, I'd attribute it more to coincidence than him actually having a clue.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 05:59 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-14 12:16 am (UTC)Oh christ. tell us about it! Nearly every time that man opens his mouth he says something that irritates.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 01:38 am (UTC)Except Issue 1 explicitly states that Buffy doesn't know about why the Immortal dating the decoy is hilarious. Buffy clearly doesn't know everything that Andrew knows and it's established in the first issue.
And I see that Maggie has handily addressed this already, but I'll say that I disagree with that statement that Buffy knows everything that Andrew or anyone in her organization would know. People keep secrets - Season 8 revolves around everyone keeping secrets. Dawn not wanting to talk about Kenny, Buffy not telling Willow about the future, Twilight's mystery identity.
As for Buffy's feelings, the fact that she's fantasizing about Angel and Spike shows us she still cares. The scene in #20 where she holds the cross and says, "Oh Angel" shows us she still cares. The thing that doesn't make sense is her knowing and acting like she doesn't care. It's why I think she doesn't know.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-13 01:53 am (UTC)True... in fact, in the bit of my post you quoted, I expressed the same disbelief. But I don't think Scott Allie felt the need to clarify that Buffy knows what Andrew knows purely for his health. Unless he's deliberately obfuscating, we're supposed to assume Buffy knows Spike's alive.
As for Buffy's feelings, the fact that she's fantasizing about Angel and Spike shows us she still cares.
No... it shows she still has sexual fantasies about them. You can have sexual fantasies about someone without caring about them. (Buffy also has fantasies about Daniel Craig, doesn't mean she cares about him other than thinking he's hot.) There's more evidence that she cares about Angel from #20, but so far, nothing comparable for Spike.
The thing that doesn't make sense is her knowing and acting like she doesn't care.
Well, if you're referring to Angel as well with this, we don't actually know what she knows, since After the Fall isn't finished yet. For all we know, Los Angeles could be right back where it's supposed to be (as #21 indicates), so she knows Angel is safe (assuming he makes it out alive/undead).
By the same reasoning, she could know Spike is safe, and even care about him the same way she cares about Angel, but feel no compulsion to contact him, since the relationship is over.