Spike and Season 8

[maggie2]

It's not so obvious to me that Spike isn't going to play a role in season 8

 

I’m under the impression that a lot of people assume that Spike will certainly not figure in season 8, and that Joss either never was interested in Spike (or Spuffy) or he views that story as settled and is just moving on.   Of course, we won’t know until the tale is done, but it does seem to me that it would be very strange if the same writer who knew that Angel marked Buffy for life didn’t think that Spike, who played at least as major a role in Buffy’s story, could vanish from her story without trace. But all I want to argue for here is the proposition that based on what we have seen in the first 21 issues, there is plenty of room for Spike to enter the story, perhaps even in an important way.

 

Before getting to the text, it’s worth observing that Scott Allie has said (Slayalive Q&A #20, question 4) that Joss has the right to use the characters in Angel as much as he likes. There thus seems to be no contractual reason for Spike to remain offstage. All that will matter is what the story demands. 

 

While I wouldn’t go so far as to argue that the story demands that Spike play a role, there is a fair amount of text at this point that would retrospectively set up his appearance.

 

1.   Buffy is the main character of the series. (Duh). When last we saw her, Spike was arguably the most important person in her world – the one who was in her heart, the one with whom she shared the fiery hands of passion, the one whose name was the last word she spoke in the entire series, the one with whom she spent what could well have been her last night in the world, the one who stood by her when all her other significant folks kicked her out of her own house, etc. etc. etc. The status of Buffy’s relationship with the person who was so very important to her was left hanging at the end of the story. It matters how it is resolved. Really. Angel hung over her story for years. It’s unreasonable to think that Spike vanished without a trace in 18 months, or that the resolution of Buffy's story with Spike is insignficant.

 

And it’s not like the writers of season 8 are insensible of the fact that romantic story lines from season 7 need to be resolved in season 8. Pretty much the first thing we learn about Faith in #6 is that Robin ended up not surprising her – she’s still very much alone. It took a while, but we finally learn that Xander really did spend some serious time mourning Anya (#13). If Joss really wanted to close off the Spike/Buffy story line, he’d have done so much the way Faith/Robin got closed out. He didn’t.

 

2. On the contrary, one of the first things Joss tells us about Buffy is that she doesn’t know the significance of the Immortal to either Angel or Spike.  It opens the door to the possibility that she does not know that they tried to track her down in TGIQ. Far from closing the story down, Joss offers a tantalizing detail that reminds us that we really don’t know where things stand between Buffy and Spike.

 

3. There is the mysterious absence of Spike from Buffy’s dream space (#3), where every other significant figure in her life is present. (With the possible exception of Hank). Angel is here, as is Riley. Tara, and Dawn, and Faith, and, Joyce, and all the major villains and the Scoobies. There are cubes from early in Buffy’s life through season 7 (Xander with an eye patch; Caleb).   There are three ways I can think of to account for this fact. (a) The scenes and figures drawn were chosen by Jeanty and have no particular significance. But Enisy asked Allie about this, and Allie says that Joss did interact with Jeanty both about what should be there and about what should not be there (Slayalive Q&A #19, question 6). (b) Buffy really doesn’t see Spike as an important person in her life (beyond his usefulness in her erotic fantasies).   That defies imagination. Whether it’s the fiery hands of passion or the bathroom scene, Spike has impacted Buffy enormously, both in good ways and in bad ways. (c) The absence is significant in a way that has yet to be revealed.

 

4. Buffy finally mentions Spike in A Beautiful Sunset sandwiched between Angel and Riley. As already noted, both Angel and Riley figured in her dream space. They’ve also both (now) appeared in the series. Angel in a nod to what lies firmly behind Buffy (#20); and Riley as either a villain or an undercover ally (#19). If two of the three major loves in Buffy’s life deserve a role in the series, it is even stranger that Joss couldn’t be arsed to close out a dangling thread about her most recent romantic involvement. 

 

5. There are plenty of places where one can read resonances with Buffy’s history with Spike, things that could take on different shades if Spike turns out to be part of this story.   In the first battle we are shown, Buffy is in a church killing a demon with a cross. The last time we saw Buffy in a church with a demon, the demon was draped on the cross in one of the most arresting images of the entire series.   General Voll points to the crater at Sunnydale and says “look what she did to her hometown”. But when Buffy last had anything to say about what caused that crater, her answer was “Spike”.   In Buffy’s dream about Xander, she promises to be gentle “this time”, yet knocks off Xander’s head and worries about being dark. There are resonances here with her not-so-gentle relationship with Spike, which was epitomized in the alley scene in Dead Things where she didn’t quite knock his head off. Buffy even says “oh balls” here, which is a line that comes from that scene in DT. Ethan’s entrance into her dream is teased as Spike (we just see his Spike-like clothes at the end of #2) and Buffy explicitly objects to him calling her “pet”.    Skipping ahead, and going in less detail: Dracula’s relationship with Xander mirrors in some ways Spike’s relationship with Buffy (evil vampire crossing lines to help the good guys because of love); Willow tells Frey that the most important men in Buffy’s life are lurks (and that that fact makes it too simple to say that Buffy’s life is about eliminating them); and in the most recent issue we have Clem and Harmony allied, the two demons who were friendly with Spike during his time in Sunnydale. None of these allusions or references have to mean anything. But they are available to mean something if Spike turns out to figure in the story. 

 

So we’ll see. It’s true that we’re nearly two years into the comics. But we’re also just over half way through the “season”. And in many of the seasons on Buffy, the real contours of the season aren’t revealed until the second half. It’s too soon to claim that Joss is going to pay no attention to Spike.  Indeed, I tend to think that the strange absences and silences point to a larger role rather than a smaller one – since the failure to close out Spike/Buffy quickly seems to demand some sort of pay-off when the story finally is continued.

Comments

[angearia.livejournal.com]

And Angel came back every now and then. I'm not naively squeeing for a Spuffy4ever reunion. Just that he's acknowledged. I think that's more than fair. I'm a bit puzzled by the extreme cynicism regarding Spike and Joss. Why?

And Joss is aware of the power of the shipping aspects of the story. It's some of the most popular questions he gets at every event - Spike or Angel? Angel or Spike? Who will Buffy end up with? To say he's unaware after being asked this question for years is being blind to the story he himself crafted. All those scenes he wrote for Spike and Buffy (the end of Beneath You, the end of Chosen, the kiss in OMWF) - Joss has written most of those iconic Spuffy moments. To say he's suddenly unaware of his own story seems a bit ludicrous.

Again, I don't really understand the extreme cynicism with Joss. It reminds me of some fans who stopped watching after Season 3 because Buffy and Angel broke up. Or if they did continue to watch, they ranted about how Joss had corrupted the story by keeping them apart. What is this phenomenon where you love the 'verse but hate the creator? To me they're one and the same. I love BUFFY and I'm thankful to Joss for creating it. I'm thankful for Season 8 and how it's revitalized the fandom.

[next_to_normal]

What is this phenomenon where you love the 'verse but hate the creator?

I love the TV show. I don't love the comics. I'm incredibly disappointed in them (for reasons that have nothing to do with Spike or Spuffy). That's where my cynicism comes in. Joss has proved more than once that he's not infallible. He only gets my trust when he earns it.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Where did he betray that trust? And when has anyone in all of history been anything but infallible? He only gets your trust when he blows your mind on his most amazing days. When he falters, when he struggles or when it doesn't connect, when he becomes more human, he loses trust? When he becomes less perfect and coincidentally more like the characters we love - in those human moments of fault and failure.

If Spike does play a role later on in this season or he gets more firm references, I'm reserving the right to sing 'Na na na na na naaaaaaaaah'. ;)

It's really a moot point, I suppose, until the season is over. I'm enjoying the comics (though I'm still critical of them) and others who feel Joss has betrayed their 'trust' aren't. I guess I'm wondering what motivates those who feel this way about Season 8 to read it. Is it that the curiosity can't be contained even though you're already disappointed with the product?

Sorry if I'm coming off weird here. This discussion just made me very sad. Disillusionment and disappointment. I'm afraid I don't understand your perspective. If you're equating it to being betrayed, than I don't think I'm able to walk in your shoes and understand it. Normally I'm pretty good and judging a topic from different perspectives, but 'betrayal of trust' is a pretty huge emotion to feel regarding fiction.

[next_to_normal]

He only gets your trust when he blows your mind on his most amazing days. When he falters, when he struggles or when it doesn't connect, when he becomes more human, he loses trust?

Sorry, but you're not going to guilt-trip me into anything here. I forgave plenty of clunker episodes because overall, the product was incredible and well worth overlooking the occasional misstep. I went into season 8 with high hopes that it would be an equally high-quality product, and I was sorely disappointed. I have been disappointed way more often than I've been entertained by the comics, and 21 episodes in, I think I've given it more than a fair chance. I'd say that's a perfectly justifiable reason to say that I don't trust Joss to entertain me, at least not with season 8. Doesn't mean I'll never watch/read anything from Joss again, because I've liked plenty of his work. Just not all of it.

If Spike does play a role later on in this season or he gets more firm references, I'm reserving the right to sing 'Na na na na na naaaaaaaaah'. ;)

Knock yourself out. I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong.

I guess I'm wondering what motivates those who feel this way about Season 8 to read it.

Well, I can't speak for anybody else, but for me, it's that I'd already preordered up to issue #21, so even though I canceled my subscription weeks ago, I still paid for those issues. I'd rather read them and be disappointed than toss them in the trash and not get anything for my money. I haven't decided whether I'll bother obtaining the issues after this. Most likely, I'll read the reviews and see if it improves. Like I said, I would really like to enjoy season 8, and if it takes a turn for the better, I'd be happy to get back on the bandwagon. But right now, I just don't.

If you're equating it to being betrayed, than I don't think I'm able to walk in your shoes and understand it.

I never said the word "betrayal." Betrayal implies that Joss made a promise to me and then broke it. He did no such thing. We've never spoken. However, I, in a one-sided relationship with his product, built up an expectation - trust, if you will - that I would enjoy his products. It turns out that's not the case, and now I'm disappointed. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that.

[rahirah]

I don't think Joss is unaware of the shippers. But I don't think shipping interests him, and I don't think he cares who Buffy ends up with - I think he'd be perfectly happy for her to end up with no one.

But on the other hand, I think he's perfectly aware that shipping sells. So the most logical course for him to pursue is to string the shippers of all camps along for as long as possible without committing to anything.

[rahirah]

And also... I don't hate Joss. I just know from experience that my idea of what a story needs to address and his don't coincide.

I, personally, think that yes, Buffy and Spike's story does demand closure. But I've lost count of the number of times that I thought "Surely they're going to address that. They can't possibly leave that hanging!" and nothing came of it. Didn't address it, and didn't think it needed addressing, and were stunned and surprised to find out that other people did think it needed addressing. So when people talk about the big revelation that must be coming, because the story won't make sense otherwise, yes, I am somewhat cynical.

If that makes me a bad fan in your eyes, I'm sorry. If Joss does give Buffy and Spike some closure, great. If he gives it to them in a way that doesn't leave me wishing I'd never shipped them in the first place, fantastic. I will be surprised and grateful and have no problem saying so. But I don't expect Joss to give me that, or anything approaching that. And I don't think he's in any way obligated to give me that. It's his story; he can tell it as he pleases.

[next_to_normal]

Word to that, too, lol.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

Oh my lord, I so agree!

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

But I've lost count of the number of times that I thought "Surely they're going to address that. They can't possibly leave that hanging!" and nothing came of it. Didn't address it, and didn't think it needed addressing, and were stunned and surprised to find out that other people did think it needed addressing. So when people talk about the big revelation that must be coming, because the story won't make sense otherwise, yes, I am somewhat cynical.

I wonder if the difference in perspective has to do with a split between those who watched the series unfold week by week, and those of us who watched it afterwards in one big Buffyfest. Cause I really can't think of too many dangling threads that have bothered me. Giles/Ripper is one that comes to mind. But because I watched it as a whole, I just don't have the experience of waiting in real time to see what ME does with something -- hence no real experience of disappointment.

Maybe this time, though! AtF did disappoint me -- but that's an argument for another day.

[next_to_normal]

I watched it on DVD in one big Buffyfest (followed by one big Angelfest), but I still feel the same way. I didn't really notice those things so much as I was watching it the first time through, but that was basically a whirlwind of getting the next DVD into the player as fast as possible, needing to know what happened next without stopping to think about what had just happened or what it meant. It wasn't until later, in rewatching episodes and participating in fandom discussions, that I've noticed most of the plot holes and dangling threads.

But as I've said, it doesn't bother me so much on the TV show. There's enough good there than I can gloss over the holes (or fanwank them - discussing them is half the fun) and still be satisfied with the big picture. I'm finding myself unable to do that with the comics. They just don't interest me enough to put that much effort in.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

We pretty much agree on the TV show then. I don't think it's perfect -- but the big picture is really tremendous. And I've just never encountered any TV show that could absorb my attention for as long as this one has, or that could repay close attention the way this one does. So I'm fairly vested in the notion that Joss knows what he's doing, in the sense that if you pay attention the story will be interesting enough and well structured enough to provoke a lot of thought and discussion.

And for me, the comics are repaying close attention. A lot depends on how the season fleshes out as a whole, but rereading them is worthwhile -- and that means that thus far I trust Joss. I've been happy with the resonances. I've been happy with the way things are structured. I think the leap forward in time works very well for what Joss seems to be trying to do. The comics have actively gone to redress some of the problems I did have with the show. For example, it really looks like Willow's rehabilitation and the whole season 6 mash they made out of her story is coming in for reconsideration. The ambiguities of Buffy's interactions with Faith have been dealt with nicely. etc. etc. Now, it could well be that the final product fails. Most importantly, I like the leap in time, but that's with the implied (to me) promise that the important gaps will be filled in. If Joss REALLY doesn't think we need to know WHY Buffy is robbing banks, then y'all are right and I'll be a latecomer to the cynical camp. Maybe even more upset about it because right now, I pretty much totally trust him on this.

[next_to_normal]

And I've just never encountered any TV show that could absorb my attention for as long as this one has, or that could repay close attention the way this one does.

Mmmm, I think there's exactly where we split. I agree on the first part, but not the second. Buffy the TV show often does repay close attention, but just as often, I find things are glossed over, left unexplained, or just plain defy logic. Like I said, that's okay, I don't mind. I'm just as happy writing meta or fanfic to explain what I can, and the rest I'll ignore in favor of the parts that work. But I'm under no illusions that Joss always knows what he's doing, because sometimes it's pretty obvious he doesn't.

So while you're going into the comics with pretty much complete faith that things will make sense, I'm going in thinking Joss has got maybe a 50-50 record, and that's not enough to sustain me through 40 issues to find out which one of us is right in the end.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

wonder if the difference in perspective has to do with a split between those who watched the series unfold week by week, and those of us who watched it afterwards in one big Buffyfest.

Quite possibly. The time in connection to the blanks is different. Watching as it aired left months to speculate on plot points, and months to deal with the fandom craziness such debates and speculation caused. It no doubt had some influence over reactions.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Cause I really can't think of too many dangling threads that have bothered me.

The first things that come to mind:

In Becoming 1-2 Whistler shows Buffy to Angel and later tells Buffy "Nobody saw you coming". Were PTB planning something sinister or Joss just forgotten what he wrote in a previous episode?

In Choices Buffy decides that Willow's life is more important than the box of Gavrock. As a result many people die during Graduation Day. Nobody ever adresses it afterwards.

In The Gift Giles kills Ben and it's never addressed later.

Fans thought it was important. Joss didn't.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Regarding the first episode, I merely saw that as nobody saw how Buffy would affect Angel and make him lose his soul. Nobody saw that coming. That Buffy would be the cause of him switching sides.

For the Choices example, it's similar to the consequences not being explored for Xander summoning Sweet in OMWF. This happens all the time. It's not the same to me as a major character interaction, the most important character relationship of the previous season, being jettisoned and ignored completely. One dream panel and one vague reference from Buffy.

In the Gift, that's an action meant to be more sinister by its secrecy. And it fits with the lesson there - sometimes we have to do bad, unspeakable things and we don't talk about them. They were necessary evils and we won't torture ourselves by discussing it to death.

Fans thought it was important. Joss didn't.

I don't think these are really comparable examples for a main character in an ensemble (imo he was, he became more than supporting cast by the end of the show) dying then coming back to life in LA and keeping it a secret. Now Oz left the show and it's fine that the characters didn't know what was going on with him for years because we the audience didn't know. Spike has done some things in AtS season 5 that would definitely garnish a reaction from Buffy - a lot of reactions from Buffy. Things we the audience watched and were waiting for a resolution on. Joss was planning for Buffy to meet up with Spike and Angel again in that season but it didn't work out logistically.

Buffy knowing Spike's back already would be like fastforwarding from Becoming through season 3 to The Freshman and we're getting Buffy's sad mopey reaction about Angel being gone. Except wait Angel's still alive? And Buffy's not acting surprised by this? And he left Buffy again? Was she upset? It's inadequate storytelling.

That's the kind of emotional angst that doesn't work in the background. What's more, it hasn't even been referenced. Can we at least get the equivalent emotional speech of "then I kissed him, then I killed him"? Something that wraps up the interaction and puts it in a box. End of story. Buffy and Spike was a central storyline of Season 7. It's a lot bigger than a single line in one episode or an the unacknowledged consequences of a decision.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Buffy and Spike was a central storyline of Season 7.

... for Spuffy fans. Not for Joss. For him it was all about the slayer line, the female power, the Potentials, Willow's rehabilitation, Dawn's acceptance of her normality. Spike/Buffy interaction got paltry screentime and it was fans imagination that made it fly.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Joss gave Spike the heroic death, had Buffy choose him in an episode called The Chosen (which, yeah, had other meanings, but certainly this one as well), had Buffy's last word be Spike, gave the couple the flaming hands of passion, and finished off the destruction of Sunnydale with Spike's trademark knocking over the Welcome to Sunnydale sign. If that's what you mean by Joss not caring about Spike or Spike/Buffy, then I wonder what he'd have had to do to convince you that he did care.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I don't say that Joss didn't care about Spike. But I think that for Joss the focus of season 7 wasn't Buffy and Spike; it was Buffy and Potentials. And in s8 he develops the latter arc. Spike (as well as Angel) would distract the audience from the main arc.

Just my impression.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Except that Buffy's most meaningful interactions throughout that season are with Spike. I could go through a breakdown of the episodes and say that scene here, this scene there. Buffy's mission for that season besides protecting the potentials was putting her faith in Spike and helping him fight the First's influence. Buffy's connection to Spike and his struggles during that season got equal or more attention than Willow or Xander or Dawn.

It's rather telling that in an episode where Willow is being magically attacked by Amy and becoming Warren, Buffy is going on a mission to help save Spike from the chip's defects. And the season keeps showing how she's putting all this trust in him. Trust that the other characters question and resent her for. Nearly every main character got an episode that featured them center stage - Willow in Same Time, Same Place and TKIM, Dawn in Potential, Andrew in Storyteller. Yet on the whole Spike played a bigger role in more episodes throughout the season - Beneath You, Sleeper, Never Leave Me, Bring on The Night & Showtime with the being tortured and bringing forth the Turokhan, Potential (training the girls with Buffy), TKIM (his chip starts misfiring and Buffy helps him), Get it Done (gets his 'stones' back and kills the demon to rescue Buffy), LMPTM, Empty Places (the Andrew/bike mission Giles sends him on where he learns 'it's for her alone to wield'), Touched (confronting everyone who kicked out Buffy and giving her the confidence to keep fighting, giving her the strength to get the Scythe). And then his significance in Chosen is really evident.

Episodes where Spike played a significant role - Beneath You...no scratch that. I was honestly about to list them and realized that every following episode has some Spike interaction. What's important is that starting with CWDP, Buffy's focus encompasses two goals: protecting the potentials and helping Spike. Helping Spike even by giving him a new purpose in training the Potentials. Being a good guy. Showing him how to change and be counted.

Buffy and Spike didn't get paltry screentime during Season 7. I really disagree with that. Obviously Buffy is the central figure that anchors every episode of the show. For the mission, she dedicated herself to the potentials. For personal reasons, she dedicated herself to Spike. While the Potentials did take up a lot of space during Season 7, Buffy and Spike were the notable exceptions to those characters who truly lost screentime and significant arcs - Dawn and Xander especially. Dawn's arc of being trained by Buffy was jettisoned and Xander was mostly taking up space, fixing the house, unknowingly dating a demon for Valentine's day and finally the unfortunate tragedy when he lost an eye fighting Caleb.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Emmie has ably handled this, especially the first one.

With respect to the second, I'd put it like this. I think these issues have very much been in play over the course of the series. Indeed, I think it's all part of a main theme: which is how much does a hero have to worry about the immediate results of an action versus how much does a hero have to worry about the big picture consequences. There was a steady trajectory in Buffy on this: from being unwilling to sacrifice a friend for the world in Choices; to seeing that she might have to sacrifice Dawn to save the world, but refusing to live in a world that demanded such sacrifices; to saying she's willing to make such sacrifices if necessary in Lies My Parents Told Me. There's a corresponding hardening of Buffy's heart, which I think is a pretty good critique of consequentialist reasoning (where the big picture is more important than the means employed to get there). Giles murder of Ben is a part of the commentary on consequentialist reasoning; and I think that it's a driving force in the rift between him and Buffy. With the irony that even as she resists that sort of logic (see her defense of Spike to Giles in season 7), she's steadily moving towards his position... or at least is taking on board his concerns much more than she did way back in Choices. So far from not being addressed, I'd say it's one of the main themes of the show -- one of the sorts of threads that nerdy academics would write essays about.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

these issues have very much been in play over the course of the series.

Exactly. Issues. Not the concrete situation with Willow.

I suppose the same may be applied to Spike. The issues of Buffy's emotional distance and her attempts to find connection will be in play, but in other circumstances and with other characters.

(I repeat, again, that I will be happy if Joss will prove me wrong).

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

One that always comes to mind for Season 7 is the "Eye of Botox". I no longer even remember what it was that was said, just that it never really went anywhere.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Pretty much, yes.