Spike and Season 8
Jan. 12th, 2009 05:27 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
maggie2
I’m under the impression that a lot of people assume that Spike will certainly not figure in season 8, and that Joss either never was interested in Spike (or Spuffy) or he views that story as settled and is just moving on. Of course, we won’t know until the tale is done, but it does seem to me that it would be very strange if the same writer who knew that Angel marked Buffy for life didn’t think that Spike, who played at least as major a role in Buffy’s story, could vanish from her story without trace. But all I want to argue for here is the proposition that based on what we have seen in the first 21 issues, there is plenty of room for Spike to enter the story, perhaps even in an important way.
Before getting to the text, it’s worth observing that Scott Allie has said (Slayalive Q&A #20, question 4) that Joss has the right to use the characters in Angel as much as he likes. There thus seems to be no contractual reason for Spike to remain offstage. All that will matter is what the story demands.
While I wouldn’t go so far as to argue that the story demands that Spike play a role, there is a fair amount of text at this point that would retrospectively set up his appearance.
1. Buffy is the main character of the series. (Duh). When last we saw her, Spike was arguably the most important person in her world – the one who was in her heart, the one with whom she shared the fiery hands of passion, the one whose name was the last word she spoke in the entire series, the one with whom she spent what could well have been her last night in the world, the one who stood by her when all her other significant folks kicked her out of her own house, etc. etc. etc. The status of Buffy’s relationship with the person who was so very important to her was left hanging at the end of the story. It matters how it is resolved. Really. Angel hung over her story for years. It’s unreasonable to think that Spike vanished without a trace in 18 months, or that the resolution of Buffy's story with Spike is insignficant.
And it’s not like the writers of season 8 are insensible of the fact that romantic story lines from season 7 need to be resolved in season 8. Pretty much the first thing we learn about Faith in #6 is that Robin ended up not surprising her – she’s still very much alone. It took a while, but we finally learn that Xander really did spend some serious time mourning Anya (#13). If Joss really wanted to close off the Spike/Buffy story line, he’d have done so much the way Faith/Robin got closed out. He didn’t.
2. On the contrary, one of the first things Joss tells us about Buffy is that she doesn’t know the significance of the Immortal to either Angel or Spike. It opens the door to the possibility that she does not know that they tried to track her down in TGIQ. Far from closing the story down, Joss offers a tantalizing detail that reminds us that we really don’t know where things stand between Buffy and Spike.
3. There is the mysterious absence of Spike from Buffy’s dream space (#3), where every other significant figure in her life is present. (With the possible exception of Hank). Angel is here, as is Riley. Tara, and Dawn, and Faith, and, Joyce, and all the major villains and the Scoobies. There are cubes from early in Buffy’s life through season 7 (Xander with an eye patch; Caleb). There are three ways I can think of to account for this fact. (a) The scenes and figures drawn were chosen by Jeanty and have no particular significance. But Enisy asked Allie about this, and Allie says that Joss did interact with Jeanty both about what should be there and about what should not be there (Slayalive Q&A #19, question 6). (b) Buffy really doesn’t see Spike as an important person in her life (beyond his usefulness in her erotic fantasies). That defies imagination. Whether it’s the fiery hands of passion or the bathroom scene, Spike has impacted Buffy enormously, both in good ways and in bad ways. (c) The absence is significant in a way that has yet to be revealed.
4. Buffy finally mentions Spike in A Beautiful Sunset sandwiched between Angel and Riley. As already noted, both Angel and Riley figured in her dream space. They’ve also both (now) appeared in the series. Angel in a nod to what lies firmly behind Buffy (#20); and Riley as either a villain or an undercover ally (#19). If two of the three major loves in Buffy’s life deserve a role in the series, it is even stranger that Joss couldn’t be arsed to close out a dangling thread about her most recent romantic involvement.
5. There are plenty of places where one can read resonances with Buffy’s history with Spike, things that could take on different shades if Spike turns out to be part of this story. In the first battle we are shown, Buffy is in a church killing a demon with a cross. The last time we saw Buffy in a church with a demon, the demon was draped on the cross in one of the most arresting images of the entire series. General Voll points to the crater at Sunnydale and says “look what she did to her hometown”. But when Buffy last had anything to say about what caused that crater, her answer was “Spike”. In Buffy’s dream about Xander, she promises to be gentle “this time”, yet knocks off Xander’s head and worries about being dark. There are resonances here with her not-so-gentle relationship with Spike, which was epitomized in the alley scene in Dead Things where she didn’t quite knock his head off. Buffy even says “oh balls” here, which is a line that comes from that scene in DT. Ethan’s entrance into her dream is teased as Spike (we just see his Spike-like clothes at the end of #2) and Buffy explicitly objects to him calling her “pet”. Skipping ahead, and going in less detail: Dracula’s relationship with Xander mirrors in some ways Spike’s relationship with Buffy (evil vampire crossing lines to help the good guys because of love); Willow tells Frey that the most important men in Buffy’s life are lurks (and that that fact makes it too simple to say that Buffy’s life is about eliminating them); and in the most recent issue we have Clem and Harmony allied, the two demons who were friendly with Spike during his time in Sunnydale. None of these allusions or references have to mean anything. But they are available to mean something if Spike turns out to figure in the story.
So we’ll see. It’s true that we’re nearly two years into the comics. But we’re also just over half way through the “season”. And in many of the seasons on Buffy, the real contours of the season aren’t revealed until the second half. It’s too soon to claim that Joss is going to pay no attention to Spike. Indeed, I tend to think that the strange absences and silences point to a larger role rather than a smaller one – since the failure to close out Spike/Buffy quickly seems to demand some sort of pay-off when the story finally is continued.
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part 2
Date: 2009-01-25 10:26 pm (UTC)I also think so. I think the "celebrity" twist may be a set-up for a situation in which Buffy, to prevent the end of the world, will have to turn all slayers, including herself, into ordinary humans. Or it will be the consequence of getting rid of all the demons. And season 9 will be about Buffy struggling in a fascist utopia and finally restoring her power.
I'm curious who do you think is Twilight? My guess is Caleb.
It's a recurring theme in his work - I see it as far back as Toy Story and Alien Resurrection (which he wrote but despised the direction of).
Oh, yes, Alien Resurrection. His first attempt to combine a human and a monster in the same person. It was a very interesting experiment, but I think it was doomed by default because two demiurges (and I regard Jeunet as a demiurg) with absolutely different sensibilities can't co-exist in one universe.
I find Whedon fascinating, even when he drives me crazy.
Same here. (I remember reading your articles back in 2000-2003. I didn't know that you follow comics. Today Maggie mentioned your discussion on Dark Horse forum and I rushed to read it.)
Re: part 2
Date: 2009-01-27 12:49 am (UTC)Oh, I like this idea. It's already been established in Wolves At the Gate that this can be done. The only question is - who does it? Buffy? Willow?
Or does Twilight?
But, I'm not sure she survives the closing off of the demons. I have a vague memory of a picture of someone - looks like Buffy, but you can't tell with the art, disappearing into the demon world with the portal sealing behind her. Not a fate I want. So I'm hoping for the version you describe above. Apparently I'm going to have to read the transcriptions of Whedon's interview. The only one I've read so far is the Spike bit.
One of the reasons I'm still reading Buffy - is I'm curious to see how he aligns the Frayverse and Buffy, and what he decides to do with Angel and Spike. Will he have Buffy seal them into the dimension? Will they sacrifice themselves? (a la Marvel Comics). Will she go with them in act of similar sacrifice? Will they all turn human? Will they die first and then she does it?
I do get the impression that he is exploring both here and in Fray that no solution is perfect, they all have dicey consequences.
I'm curious who do you think is Twilight? My guess is Caleb.
I think you may be right. Before Warren came back from the dead, I'd have said, nah, Caleb's gone. But now? Not so much. Also Twilight sounds a lot like Caleb. More so than the other villians from the past.
There's a popular theory online that Twilight is "Harth" from the Frayverse, but I don't see that. Too complicated to set up. I have a sneaking suspicion he's a new character - of course that does not explain the mask.
Some people think he's Xander. But Xander would have to be two places at once, which is a bit difficult to do. Also he's quite a bit bigger than Riley, so unless Xander has grown. Wrong physical type and wrong vocal pattern. Same with Harth - he's bigger than Harth.
Can't be Angel or Spike - for same reason he can't be Xander - would have to be two places at the same time. Also wrong speech pattern.
No, logically? Caleb works best. (I used to think it was Riley - because Twilight fits Riley's speech patterns and height, as well as his issues.
Sort of an extreme version of Riley's whole military initiative drive.
But Whedon chose to make Riley - Twilight's spy or aide or whatever instead.)
It's a recurring theme in his work - I see it as far back as Toy Story and Alien Resurrection (which he wrote but despised the direction of).
It was a very interesting experiment, but I think it was doomed by default because two demiurges (and I regard Jeunet as a demiurg) with absolutely different sensibilities can't co-exist in one universe.
Oooh. That explains a lot. Yes, you are right. Two demiurges cannot occupy the same space without killing each other.
Re: part 2
Date: 2009-01-27 12:50 am (UTC)Oh thank you!
I've read some of your stuff as well - rec'd on petz's lj.
Yep, big comics fan. I have a weakness for super-hero/noir stories, particularly in the comics. Been collecting comics off and on since 1985.
Was a huge X-men fanatic ( something Whedon apparently shares). I'd managed to give up on them in 2001. Then Whedon, damn him, started writing Astonishing X-men and got me picking them up again. I only picked up Whedon's X-men. Stopped - when he stopped writing them. Now he has me reading Buffy, and Lynch got me reading Angel. I was already reading the Spike comics, because...well you know.
I've also read the really good stuff or literary comics - Gaiman, Miller, Alan Moore... and some magna. Buffy reminds me a lot of female Japanese magna comics - which aren't as violent as the male ones, have more nudity, more sex scenes, and are in some ways lighter in tone and art. Jeanty's style fits the same tone as the Magna. I'm wondering if Whedon is attempting to do a female action comic in much the same way? He's not as biting as the Japanese or as X-rated. They get a little more..explicit in their comics than we do. But part of that is more adults read comics over there then over here. It's more mainstream and more accepted for some reason.
Re: part 2
Date: 2009-01-27 02:26 am (UTC)Can't be Angel or Spike - for same reason he can't be Xander - would have to be two places at the same time.
From what I've seen, most people saying "Xander" are more likely to think future!Xander, friend of future!Willow.
And as far as Angel and Spike go, didn't AtF reset the timeline back to the end of Not Fade Away?
None of those would really require Twilight to be in two places at once...
Re: part 2- Why it isn't Xander.
Date: 2009-01-27 05:24 pm (UTC)While personally, I think it would be fascinating if it were Xander - I don't think it works either thematically or as a plot point, nor in the logical framework of the universe Whedon has set up.
First the time travel aspect: Whedon has shown in Time of Your Life that this is VERY difficult. Willow had to find a temporal portal at exactly the right moment, she accidently not deliberately caused Buffy to go through it. And getting it open again, required revisiting the mysterious Saga the snake goddess. It wasn't like she just waived her arms and it happened.
Two - there's no indication whatsoever that Xander is in the future with Willow. If anything there's every indication that he is not. FutureWillow is clearly desperately lonely, somewhat insane, and alone. She lives alone.
No assistant or aid in evidence outside of Harth. And they make a point of telling us she is alone and has been alone for a very long time, centuries.
Hence the insanity. FutureXander being a friend of her's - does not make any sense.
Three - Xander unlike Willow, Andrew, Riley, and Giles - has shown no indication whatsoever of being duplicitious or going that route. You have to dig pretty deep to hunt it. He's talking to Buffy. He gets along beautifully with Buffy. There's no rift there. He doesn't appear to blame Buffy for anything - that has been shown on the page clearly.
Willow - Whedon spent a lot of time and effort both in the comics and onscreen showing a potential slide to the dark side. And has thematic reasons for doing so - the potential dangers of magic.
Riley - Whedon spent a lot of time onscreen showing how dedicated he is to the military and how his head has been played with by Walsh and the military. Also Riley's dislike of magic.
Giles - Whedon has spent a lot of time building on the rift between Buffy and Giles. Also Giles is an authority figure or represents one.
Andrew - we've seen very little of. Has dabbled with magic. And has a shady past. I doubt it is Andrew, but he's more likely than Xander.
And he hits the whole, I want to be a superhero regardless of the cost to everyone else theme - Whedon is into.
Xander?? Sure it would be cool and ironic. But there's no build-up. And it doesn't fit any of the themes. It works better from a plot and thematic standpoint to keep Xander in the role he is in - ordinary man or everyman - the guy who watches or sees things. We are often in his pov in the series.
Also, he's a good guy, who doesn't have to be a superhero. A counter-point to Willow, Angel, Riley, etc.
You have to look at it from three points: 1) is it physically possible, 2) does it make sense from a character perspective and plot perspective - has there been build-up? and 3) does it work within the thematic structure of the narrative? Or does it go against those themes?
Xander would be counter to the themes, because he's in some ways Whedon's stand-in for himself, the guy who is a bit of a feminist, who has no problem with powerful women. And is not magical. Xander is the only character if you think about it - who does not have magic or use it.
Twilight does use magic or something to power himself.
Re: part 2 - Why Twilight isn't Angel or Spike
Date: 2009-01-27 05:46 pm (UTC)Hmmm. For it to be Spike or Angel. One thing has to be established - that they weren't busy elsewhere at the time Buffy was fighting or dealing with Twilight.
For that to work, the following assumptions must be true. And I see no evidence in the comics that they are in any way.
1. That Buffy S8 takes place after NFA.
There's no clear evidence this is true. I haven't read all of Whedon's interviews - but the one's I have, he doesn't say when it takes place, just that it is after S7.
We do however have a few clues in the comics that Buffy S8 may actually be taking place around the second half of Angel S5.
1. Giles and Faith's arc. Until that arc, Giles clearly was in the habit of killing or getting rid of Rogue slayers. And Buffy still does - as seen by both Buffy and Gile's behavior towards Gigi, who by the way is no where near as dangerous and sociopathic as Dana was in Damage.
At the end of the Giles/Faith arc -"No Future for You" - Giles and Faith make a pact to save rogue slayers and rehabilitate them.
Andrew in Damage - demonstrates that he is more than capable of lying to Angel and Spike. Also he talks a lot about Giles in that episode and how Giles is training him. His interaction with Buffy is sparse at best.
This I think clues us in to the fact that Damage took place after No Future for You.
2. Harmonic Divergence - this issue is a major plot changer. Also it is clear before NFA in both the Buffyverse and the Angelverse - people were not aware of the Supernatural. After NFA and what happens to the Angel team they are.
You are assuming the reset included the entire planet. What if it just involved the people in LA? What if time went on without them? When they return there are huge differences. WRH is gone and replaced with a doublemeat palace sign - as if it has been gone for some time. People are addressing Angel as a legend, not the head-honcho of WRH. Harmony - who was a secretary in WRH is in a reality series - or somewhere else about to be in one. But Harmonic Diviregence takes place in Santa Monica, not LA.
So it is more than possible that both are happening at the same time.
Okay, now, since Damage clearly comes after No Future for You - and Twilight showed up as early as The Long Way Home - I'd say it's a bit far-fetched for Angel and Spike to be Twilight - based on that alone.
But, here's futher bits:
1. Angel and Spike are vampires and sort of into magic. Twilight is not a vampire as far as I can tell.
2. There's no clear reason established why Angel or Spike would team up against Buffy. She's the love of their lives.
3. Whedon is loosely involved in plotting ATF and not that invested in the outcome.
So he's not trying to establish either as Twilight - like he established Willow as Darkwillow.
4. Speech mannerisms and phsyique don't fit either character. Twilight sounds more like Caleb.
5. Twilight doesn't have authority issues and gets along with the military. Spike and Angel despise the military and have huge authority issues. Also they already tried that with WRH, been there, done that.
No, it just doesn't work logically within the framework of the narrative.
Too many leaps.
Re: part 2 - Why Twilight isn't Angel or Spike
Date: 2009-01-27 06:59 pm (UTC)First, Joss and/or Allie have said that S8 is something like 18 months after series. And Dawn has leapt to college age (which even at 18 months still has her as a very young collegiate). So S8 is definitely post-NFA. I think that's the whole reason to choose 18 months as the jumping off point. I don't think Giles was in the habit of assassinating rogue slayers prior to NFFY; the whole premise of that arc was that it was a very big deal to take such a step, but necessary in this case. I don't see any reason to think that salvaging problematic slayers wasn't SOP prior to NFFY. Dana isn't rogue per se. She's insane. There are lots of ways to develop the "vampires are real" reveal in S8 with the "we were in hell" developments in LA so that the timelines workout.
So I don't think there's a problem with Spike or Angel as twilight on that count.
How about the absence of plausible thematic? Here's a case for Spike as Twilight:
Twilight didn't have a problem with one slayer. He's responding to problems that cropped up as a result of there being many slayers. And he says it falls to him to do something about it. Spike has a connection to that transforming event. Buffy has the scythe because on her own account he gave her the strength to retrieve it. He was her right-hand man and confidant at the end. So he's a part of what went down. Before S8 started unspooling I thought it would be very cool if the guardians tapped Spike, the slayer of slayers turned good, to be the one to work to offset the inevitable bad repercussions of there beign too many slayers in the world. It would put him in opposition to Buffy in many ways. Anyway, that's available in the Twilight story line, since Twilight is not obviously wrong about the problems with too many slayers.
The statements about knowing the slayer well are also quite consistent with Spike.
But you are right that the speech patterns are off. It makes no sense that Riley of all people would work with Spike. Spike's wonderful, but he's not a leader. And one has the impression that Twilight is tall, and Spike isn't. If this is Spike (which is stretchy in the extreme), it's a future Spike or something like that. A very altered Spike. And maybe he's kept his identity secret from Riley, as well.
Agree that Caleb meets the criteria about the use of the term "girls" throughout Twilight's dialogue with Buffy; he knows that move (though Angel and Spike do as well). But do we have any foundation for Caleb caring about Buffy (as Twilight obviously does)? For him knowing her particularly well? Intimately well, even? And Caleb had a problem with any slayers, where Twilight's issue seems to be too many slayers. It'd take some work to move the cartoonishly black Caleb into the role of the interestingly ambiguous Twilight.
As of now Joss is going to have to close logical/narrative gaps somewhere. Spike is a dark horse. But I can't quite rule him out. I suspect one could make a similar dark horse case for Angel. He meets a lot of the criteria Spike meets with the exception that Angel doesn't actually know the real Buffy all that well, and it's not obvious why it would fall to him (unless that's part of his generic problem with thinking of himself as the major player in all things). The major objection to Angel is that it's hard to see Angel being available for a supporting role in Buffy's story when he's lined up to star in upcoming stories of his own.