Dawn's Keyness and the Art of Speculation

[maggie2]

My poll about Dawn's keyness has provoked some vigorous discussion, so I just wanted to state my own position about how her keyness might (or might not) relate to season 8.  It is simply this.  That a season named Twilight began with the character named Dawn as a giant has always seemed to me like a strong suggestion that Dawn is going to matter.  We've since had enough references to her latent keyness for that to be available for the story as it unfolds.  #25 describes Dawn's status as a doll in a way that to me is highly resonant with her status as a key.   #25 also contains lines that would foreshadow Dawn's death (possibly even at Buffy's hand) if that's what turns out to happen.

This is not a prediction.  It's just reading the tea leaves to see what possible directions the story could go.  There are literary markers in the text that would make a story about Dawn's keyness seem rich and well-foreshadowed.  What that story would be I have no idea.  I'm not a creative writer.  Maybe it will be cool.  Maybe it'll be lame.  Maybe it won't happen at all.  I don't know.  All I'm doing is pointing to some details available to serve a literary function if the story goes a certain way.  It's just some speculation. 

Over on Buffy forums, King of Cretins replied that we'd need pages of exposition to explain how Dawn is still a key and available to be used in this story.  That was the main impetus for the poll.  Along the way there have been complaints that it would be bad writing if the story went this way.  Since my argument just was that there are literary markers available for use if the story goes that way, I obviously don't think a story going in this direction would necessarily involve lame out of the blue writing.  But it could still turn out to be a craptastic story.  I have no idea what Joss will do in his last arc, much less how well he's going to do it.

End of my part of the mountain made out of a very, very small molehill.

Comments

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Over on Buffy forums, King of Cretins replied that we'd need pages of exposition to explain how Dawn is still a key and available to be used in this story.

Well, that's obviously not the case, and I certainly don't agree with that. My problem with it, as I said, isn't that nobody remembers that she used to be The Key. It's just that being The Key hasn't been part of her story or her identity since "The Gift", any more than Buffy being a cheerleader has been a part of her identity since "The Witch". They may occasionally have mentioned it, but it hasn't had any influence on anything she's done or anything anyone else has done with/to her since then. And to suddenly re-introduce that... well, OK, a few catchy cheers might help sway the public's opinion of the Slayer army, so who knows, it might work. :)

Vamps are bad!
Slayers good!
Vampires kill by sucking blood!
Dust'em! Dust'em! Dust'em!

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Exactly, and to further extend your point, it's the correlation of reintroducing the Key out of nowhere with Dawn dying because she's the Key. It feels unearned that something that's just been reintroduced culminates in her immediate death. Or, here's my snarky explanation.

I'd rather think that Dawn's character arc is about her recovering her agency, so I find it better to have Dawn saving herself and perhaps somehow controlling her inner nature.

This whole discussion was sparked by the theory that Buffy would kill Dawn because Dawn is the Key. It's not solely that Dawn being the Key has been left aside, but that bringing it back just to have Buffy doing something awful reads badly to me.

One such idea that I've considered is that all the transformations everyone let Dawn go through in the earlier issues have denigrated the original spell that made her human. I can see that as poetic justice. Buffy being too preoccupied to help her sister, thinking she's not in trouble because she's forgotten Dawn "isn't real" to begin with, has in fact led to her sister disappearing from human existence. But then you get into the problem that it still makes no sense why everyone just left Dawn to suffer in this state for 25 issues. Buffy by failing to protect Dawn's human nature for 25 issues has led to Dawn's human nature becoming even more vulnerable.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Well, in fairness to Joss, he hasn't actually done that yet (ETA: sacrifice Dawn, that is, you know my opionion on the Kafka!Dawn arc and there's no reason to repeat it here), so in this case I'm willing to wait a few months before yelling at him. :)

I'm trying to figure out why the idea of Dawn's keyness being the central phlebotinum of Season 8 bothers me so much, and I think it's the same reason I hate Terminator 3 (and to a lesser extent Angel: After the Fall, with Wesley's explanation of how the shanshu works). If you spend years, or even decades, telling a story about "there's no destiny but what we make ourselves", about everything being a process, about not defining yourself by your [insert role]-hood - and then suddenly at the last second decide "Nah, destiny really is Written, you will become this/do this/live like this/die like this no matter what you do, and that's really the most important thing about you", it feels like someone's been cheated. Certainly the characters, but far too often the readers/viewers too. Dramatic irony is great; using it to negate every serious point you've made, less so.

But so far, this is all hypothetical, of course, so I'm happy to drop it for now.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Haha, makes sense to me. I'm more arguing against the potential idea of it happening and hoping it'll be something else.

Dramatic irony is great; using it to negate every serious point you've made, less so.

And it's starting to feel like there's too much text that Season 8 keeps on undercutting the serious points that have come before. It's the sort of development where you think... yeah, I didn't need this continuation because it's lessening the great moments before this (like Willow being a killer). And the dramatic effect of Warren's death.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

My hope would be that whatever story Joss tells out of the interesting pieces he has set out would prove to be more interesting than that. I've no idea how they all fit together -- though I've never been to keen on sacrifice to open portal theories. I just think something's in the works that involves Dawn and keyness.

[harsens-rob.livejournal.com]

... Something like Dawn opening the portal we saw in flashback during Buffy's trip to Fray's timeline perhaps?

I can't remember at the moment if it is Dark-Willow blah-blah-ing or if it's something told to Fray by the demon sent to "ready her" for being the Slayer. But I do remember a panel describing how Buffy and the Slayers disappeared through a portal and the evil was driven away for several hundred years and that is why there were no Slayers called until Fray herself...

Darn it. Naturally, I'm at work - so I don't have the comics to hand to zip through them and give the chapter and verse of what I'm talking about - but, the first thing I thought of was I wonder if Dawn will have something to do with the Slayer army leaving (and taking the demons with them).

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Did you read what I wrote? I never said Buffy would kill Dawn because she's the key (though other people have said it). All I've said is that #25 has lines that would serve as foreshadowing IF Buffy ends up killing Dawn for some reason. (My current theory: Accidental shooting tinged with a bit of dark because of simmering tensions about to go ballistic post-Twilight; releaes explosive key energy) I have no idea how all the elements that have been laid down will play out or even if they will play out. The title of the last arc just revives my long simmering thought that there's a LOT of detail in the text that would take on extra resonances if Dawn turns out to be a central player in the final drama. I think something happening is more likely than not. Am 100% agnostic about what will happen.

Are we clear about this yet?

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I think they're doing a bit more textual work than that. In Twilight we see Dawn having to remind people that she was a giant/centaur/doll. Along with the key references I think that holds a place in the text for the scoobies having buried keyness the way they're on the way to burying giant/centaur/doll. And since Dawn's keyness didn't matter in season 5 in terms of who she was (a little girl) I don't see that it needs more development here. The whatever of whatever she can do will be developed in the last arc (if the story even goes this way) and we can hop up and down about whether that whatever makes sense. Given the way the seasons are going, smart money would say 'not', but I'm more hopeful than that, and in any case I see no reason for all the shouting now.

Anyway, we disagree, but that's where I'm coming from.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

It's the Key coming to the foreground after years of the writers deliberately ignoring it and obscuring its presence, all while coinciding with her death. Direct causality isn't the question.

[next_to_normal]

End of my part of the mountain made out of a very, very small molehill.

Heh. Yeah. Do we really miss S8 wank so much that, in the absence of new comics, we need to wank about stuff that Joss might do? I'm all for speculation, but this whole argument just seemed silly.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I surely did not expect so much grief for it. I'm used to Joss-bashing, but bashing him for things that haven't even happened yet is annoying. (And seeing people unfairly bashed whether I like them or no is something I'll typically respond to).

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Ahem, it wasn't Joss bashing. The analysis I made is that the specific theory would be playing into Predictable Joss. If the theory were to become true, I'd find it in poor taste.

Like I've said, I disagree strongly with the theory because I'm expecting more of Joss.

And it gets personal for me when I keep being told I'm Joss bashing. Impassioned rhetoric is my style of expression--bashing requires thoughtless disregard, a violent attack devoid of logic. I've put a great deal of thoughtful analysis into this and other very intelligent people agree and see the point. jnb71796 just wrote a two-comment-long analysis of the situation in my own journal. So I am taking it personally, Maggie. Because my following the conversation reads as not so much a discredation of my ideas (of which there are many), but more reducing my overall point to "bashing".

Rather than bashing Joss, I'm discrediting the theory--I think it plays into Joss' weaknesses as a writer (and every writer has them, so speaking of a weakness is most definitely not bashing).

If you're wondering why speculation in a forum became a "mountain", you'll find it's the personal remarks like above where you define opposing opinions as resorting to "unfairly bash[ing]" people. You haven't attached any names to your statments, but who else are you talking about? King and me. In this regard, anonymity just further irritates the insult.

So from my perspective, you've been discounting my opinion and discrediting me as a person who bashes. Thanks for diminishing the value of my thoughts. Which fall in line with Beer Good and Jnb71976 with easy harmony. Are we all bashers or is it just me?

If you're surprised you're getting grief, maybe you might look at what you're saying about other people's character and the value of their thoughts. Because I did feel insulted. And I still do.

And to compare behavior, typically when something happens on a forum or on Whedonesque, it's brought over to LJ to hold up an example of thought as being bizarre and to be examined by the greater LJ body (e.g. Lirazel posting about Feminism 101 fail on Whedonesque, or Sue posting about fanboys run amuk on the IDW boards). And unfortunatley I have reason to think the discussion is continuing about the bizarre nature of my behavior in disbelief, then discussed at length and judged. Maybe I've turned into Lucinda or Cheryl without noticing?

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Honestly, just you. I am at this point seriously ticked off at you. So let me take a deep breath and let's see if we can table this thing. Cause I'm really hating this a lot.

1. All I said was a speculation. It was NOT detailed. I repeat, NOT detailed. No theory about Buffy killing Dawn to close portals. Nothing. Just saying there's a lot of dawn-related things in the mix and I think it may be part of the big finale.

2. I don't see how you can start cranking out grand theories of bad writing about the claim that Dawn's keyness might play a role. We do NOT know what sort of role -- which renders jnb71796's post entirely moot. The onus would be on Joss to explain however it is that it might come up. But you aren't giving him a chance to even do that. You just can't critique him for what hasn't written. And you can't keep arguing with me as though I were defending a particular theory.

3. And you are SO hot about this that even when I try mildly to ask you to explain it to me; to lay down swords, all I get are more posts about how Joss is a Bad Writer or would be if keyness comes up; snarking about me to BGF on my LJ (with no apology); and furious post after post that continues to distort what I'm saying.

4. Since you are not listening to me, I conclude you are not interested in having a conversation. Since you are seizing on a thin line of speculation with such vigor, I just assume you have an agenda. And that's the phrase that has appeared over and over and over from you. Joss is a Bad Writer. Him bringing in the key would be out of the blue and not well set up. If he does bring in the key it will be totally preditable in cliche. When he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't and when you are so hell bent on giving all these grand proclamations that are all over the map argument wise and which systematically refuse to read what I'm saying, then yes - I call it bashing. Especially since you've been in bash mode since you know when. Joss is anti-feminist. He's degrading women's bodies. Season 8 could have been great but wasn't. All over the Buffy Recusant thread. Can you even count how many posts you've written about this that or the other thing as an example of Joss's bad writing? Anyway I read our current tempest in a very tiny teapot in the light of all of that.

I'm very happy to be wrong about Josh-bashing. But please explain to me why it's been so almighty important to you to say that my very small speculation about the scattering of clues that Dawn might matter in the final sets the stage for all these posts and all this bruhaha. Is it impossible for you to just calm down, and read this post of mine articulating my position as clearly as I can, and respond to *that* without going off on how Joss is no Tolkien?

We're oil and water, you and I. I wish it were otherwise. I hate the polarization that's going on here. If you are interested in setting down swords, then wipe the slate clean, read my post, and tell me what's wrong with it.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Maggie, I don't have a problem with your right to have opinions. I disagree. I have a problem with you taking my behavior and shoving it to the front of the class for everyone else to judge.

You have every right to debate ideas with me. You do not have the right to judge my behavior in how I disseminate ideas. And you certainly don't have the right to discuss me under the guise of anonymity and pretend like you're not personally attacking me by doing so.

The bad writing opinion was on the speculative theory. And bringing the Key back to the forefront does change the past messages (as Beer Good as eloquently explained). It's about writerly intent, about suddenly finding Dawn convenient after years of pushing her away. Dawn's character deserves better than to just be used when convenient. That's the point.

I'm so "hot" about this mostly because I've felt personally attacked by *you*. I'd actually made my first post explaining my thoughts private and then got multiple messages from people asking why. I'm not personally attacking you, but you are personally attacking me.

So I'm asking you to stop. Or maybe you could have the decency to leave the personal "bashing" to private messages so I don't have to read it ad nauseum. Or read my opinions being distorted, presented to friends with my identity wiped clean, and then going through a line of WTF reactions.

I've been pushed by you into defending myself. And I'm upset by it. I've been guilty of taking a conversation to another post and talking about a person who isn't present, only to realize how horrible that behavior is. I try not to do it anymore and I have that crash-and-burn past to remind me.

It's pretty basic. Talk about the IDEAS, stop talking about me.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

part 2:
Which leads to personal stuff. I don't think you have the slightest idea how much hurt you do to me. None. I'm sorry if my stuff has been hurtful back. I can see how calling you bashing is upsetting. But your response to my poll (which really was mostly about King, hence phrased the way it was) and above all your unwillingness to let it go while simultaneously absolutely refusing to understand what I'm saying is upsetting. High fiving people against me on my LJ is always hurtful and you do it all the time. Snarking about me on my journal is hurtful to me. So I'm willing to say we've been bitches to each other. But I'm not willing to say it's been a one-way street. It really hasn't. I honestly feel like you have it in for me sometimes. I'm sure that's the last thing on your mind. There's just this energy of antagonism and it makes me want to quit LJ altogether some times. Really. I don't have the talent for social networking you do. I don't have special friends to come and give me pep talks when this stuff happens. You have a whole bunch of folks who love you to death. You get lots and lots of support. I know there are many who respect me. But nobody's got my back, and to have you lead these attacks on me and my position is tiresome -- especially in cases like this where you aren't even dealing with what I said. Like I said, I come very close to walking away from the fandom all the time, and you are the main reason why. I'd really like to stop all this. We used to be friends. I don't know why we can't disagree in peace. Sigh.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Your poll didn't bother me. It was neutral and I saw it was about King. It's the comments that later referred to my position and reduced me to a basher.

Again, it's when you start talking about the person and not the idea... that's what was hurtful. And I've been guilty of this in the past with other people, but I did *not* make this situation personal.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I can't carry on this conversation with you, Emmie, if you don't own at least part of the problem. Really. I'm leaving the boards for a while to get perspective, and unless we can make some peace I'm going to beg you to ignore me and my posts when I get back and I will do likewise. It's just too hurtful and upsetting as it is.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

End of my part of the mountain made out of a very, very small molehill.

It's a little worrying that the season eight debates are getting so furious that it seems as if battle lines end up being drawn over this speculation. I write it off to passion about the material, I guess, but all the season 8-hate does get exhausting, even if I understand where the hatred/disapproval/unhappiness with the comics is coming from.