maggie2: (Default)
maggie2 ([personal profile] maggie2) wrote2010-08-28 06:37 pm

8.36: The Preview Pages


So with four days left to go before #36 finally comes out, I figure I'd waste some time pondering the preview pages.  They came out on a pretty crummy day, so I was grumpy when I first read them.  Random thoughts below the cut.

1.  So this is Angel from the future, or at least from 'a' future -- one where 'we' lost the war.  The war in question was in LA, but that may or may not be a purely local deal.  At the end of the preview we find out that future!Angel has some issues with the cheerleader.

The time travel angle has been in play all season long -- at least since #10 when Buffy talked about changing things if she was in a time loop.  Time travel gives me a headache, and I can only hope this is written in a way that doesn't boil down to some "the characters get an infinite number of chances to make things right so nothing really matters" sort of a deal.  The drama of life is that we only get one shot at it (says the woman who wishes she could have a do-over on a daily basis).  

2.  I love that Angel gets smashed by the O.  More call backs to season 2.

3.  DOG shows up.  His first line is "I know I'm a dog.  What a world, right?".  Reminds me of Spike in School Hard talking to Angel about what a world it is where people buy all that Anne Rice stuff.   There are a few other places where DOG sounds Spike-ish.  Fortunately there are places where DOG sounds not at all like Spike.

4. So the world's back the way it was supposed to be.  Fortunatley this is DOG speaking which means we don't necessarily have to assume that we really are playing the "reset and redo as many times as it takes to get it right" game.  The whole idea reminds me of fanfic, much of which is about resetting the game and getting it right.  Which is a perfectly fine and enjoyable game to play -- in fanfic.

5.  Angel pushes the O back into place.  Superpowers already in place then. 

6.  Another joke about balls!  Probably just the usual joke about why dogs lick themselves.  But it'd be cool if DOG turns out to be channeling Saga Vasuki -- a female type would probably be very entertained by the situation.

7.  Mention of Wesley.  Along with Angel's reaction to mention of Buffy makes me think that future!Angel isn't from so very far in (his) future.  The loss of the war rankles, and doesn't seem to be a dim memory.

8.  Angel is twitchy about "chosen".  Immediate reference is that he's twitchy about Buffy, which raises the possiblity that she had something to do with the war that was lost.   DOG asks what they're going to do about that, which Angel takes to be a threatening remark about Buffy.  I'd love it if the subtext here is that Angel is twitchy about who Buffy chose in Chosen, and that's what he ought to do something about.  Probably wishful thinking, since honestly having the first pages be about Angel was disappointing to my Spike-centric self.

9.  DOG is waiting for Angel to feel it.   Could mean Angel's superpowers -- maybe Angel didn't notice he had them when he pushed the O back up.  But this line resonates with FDW waiting for Buffy to feel it -- the weight of her failure.  In this case, Angel could be asked to feel something of how this world has changed.  Dunno.  It's pretty open ended.

There are two possible shoutouts to LOST: DOG looks like Vicent; there's an airplane about to crash.  Certainly the preview reminded me of the un-joy of watching LOST where questions piled up faster than answers were granted.  It's the last arc!  But we knew there had to be some big back story on Angel.  A war weary Angel who has lost everything makes some of Twangel easier to understand.  The cynicism about the inevitable deaths of mortals.  The lack of concern about seeing a world lost (since he's in a world that just got reconstituted after having already been lost).  

My big wish is that DOG be related to Saga Vasuki and/or Willow.  That's a plot line that needs to be joined.  Angel listening to chaos means that the story isn't necessarily selling Angel as the poor hero who just had to become Twilgiht to save the world.  And who knows, maybe they plucked the version of Angel who'd been through the crushing defeat because they knew that was the version that would most easily be their patsy?  Could work.  But time travel and alternative universes need to be employed with care.  Makes me nervous, in a grumpy sort of a way. 
ext_7259: (Default)

[identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 09:31 am (UTC)(link)
Either she instinctively knew he was still good, and the text then works to prove to us he's good with many pages to be more convincing. Or she just boinked a guy thinking he's good when he is in fact an evil son of a bitch sometimes--path to hell has been paved with spacefrakking--up, up and away!

I assumed that it was the glow that made her (and Angel) incredibly horny.

I guess Joss wanted to resolve all Bangel UST, accumulated in the fandom during 10 years. So he came up with Big Spacefrak - but, in order to justify Buffy sleeping with the enemy, he used Glowhypnol, making both Buffy and Angel victims of The Almighty Universe.

It's Buffy's post-coital behavior that bugs me. In #35 she doesn't look affected by glowhypnol - neither visually, nor textually. Yet she accepts Angel's "goodness" without questioning: if Twilight is Angel then he can't be bad. They shouldn't fight whatever he does. She shouldn't question his actions. She seems okay with everything he has done. As soon as Angel is by her side, the only thing that can go wrong is a band of orcs coming over the mountain.

That was the weirdest part of the arc. Really? Orcs? Buffy, this is the (supposed) love of your life, who is responsible for everything bad that happened in your recent life, including death of 200+ slayers! And the only thing that troubles you is that something can interrupt your idyll?

Maybe Meltzer was intentionally writing in the Meyeresque mode to attract Meyer fans, who knows.
ext_7259: (Default)

[identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 09:39 am (UTC)(link)
* Angel's clothes looks similar to those from #35 and is opening the portal another consequence of the space-frakkin?

Looks like that, from now on, every plot hole can be closed with space-frakking. :)

or this is the real/first time beginning of Angel as Twilight? It doesn't compute very well with the (Tw)Angel - Whistler flash-backs from the Riley one-shot

I guess this is the beginning. Later, when PTB understood that Angel don't believe talking dogs and birds, they sent Whistler.
ext_15284: a wreath of lightning against a dark, stormy sky (Default)

[identity profile] stormwreath.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 12:33 pm (UTC)(link)
It's Buffy's post-coital behavior that bugs me.

It mostly seems to bug people who believe that Buffy would never sleep with Angel voluntarily. If you accept that she would, then pretty much all the problems go away. :-) She doesn't feel violated and abused after the "glow wears off", because the sex was her idea in the first place. (And yes, I think the idea of "Glowhypnol" is mostly a fanwank by people who can't bear to imagine Buffy having sex with Angel any other way. ;-) )


who is responsible for everything bad that happened in your recent life, including death of 200+ slayers!

But he wasn't. Neither in reality (the deaths would have happened regardless of his intervention, even if you refuse to accept his claim that he prevented many more) nor in Buffy's mind (since she mostly blames herself for 'changing the world' and turning public opinion against her).

I'm not saying Buffy shouldn't demand a more detailed explanation and accounting from him later, and I'd be disappointed if she doesn't make at least one cutting remark: but seriously, Buffy's the kind of person who goes with her instincts and doesn't waste a lot of time in recrimination when there's an apocalypse to prevent.
ext_15439: (Default)

[identity profile] ubi4soft.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 12:37 pm (UTC)(link)
every plot hole can be closed with space-frakking. :)

Oh, boy!

I guess this is the beginning. Later, when PTB understood that Angel don't believe talking dogs and birds, they sent Whistler.

But if it's the beginning Angel already knows the future. what was the point of Whistler telling Angel about the future, again? Did Angel got dumber or somebody didn't coordinate the stories?
ext_15284: a wreath of lightning against a dark, stormy sky (Default)

[identity profile] stormwreath.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 12:37 pm (UTC)(link)
It's nothing to do with shipping. Buffy also understands intinctively that Spike is a good man inside without needing to be walked through it step by step. :-)

She forgave Spike for 'Seeing Red', why shouldn't she forgive Angel for Season 8?
ext_15439: (Default)

[identity profile] ubi4soft.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 12:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Four months of waiting for the first issue with Spike in it?

And you're the one with the "Spike shaped hole" in S8. I so much hope to be filled right.
ext_15284: a wreath of lightning against a dark, stormy sky (Default)

[identity profile] stormwreath.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 12:41 pm (UTC)(link)
:-)

Like I said to maggie, it's not a shipping issue for me. I think it's likely that Buffy still carries a torch for Angel and always will, but it doesn't mean he's her 'destined true love' or anything like that. Nor does it mean she can't fall in love with anyone else: she can and has. And yes, I thought Buffy/Spike made for more interesting TV to watch than Buffy/Angel. :-)

ext_15284: a wreath of lightning against a dark, stormy sky (Default)

[identity profile] stormwreath.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 12:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Buffy never appeared in 'Damage'. We saw Andrew who was claiming to act on her orders.

I don't know that she'd need physical contact, but even with supernatural Slayer intuition I hardly think it's unreasonable to expect her to have to hear someone speak or look into their eyes in order to judge their character. :-)
ext_7259: (Default)

[identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 01:00 pm (UTC)(link)
It mostly seems to bug people who believe that Buffy would never sleep with Angel voluntarily.

I believe that Buffy would sleep with Angel voluntarily.

I don't believe that Buffy would sleep with Twangel voluntarily.

And yes, I think the idea of "Glowhypnol" is mostly a fanwank by people who can't bear to imagine Buffy having sex with Angel any other way. ;-)

Then how do you explain the glow? As a purely visual gag, Jossian version of Meyeresque sparkling? Or something relevant to the plot? :-)

But he wasn't. Neither in reality (the deaths would have happened regardless of his intervention, even if you refuse to accept his claim that he prevented many more) nor in Buffy's mind (since she mostly blames herself for 'changing the world' and turning public opinion against her).

This is where we radically disagree.

In reality, I think that Angel is responsible for what happened as a result of his actions. So far, Jasmine's logic was inacceptable in Jossverse, and I hope it won't change.

As to what happens in Buffy's mind... I don't know. Meltzer's characters are utterly puzzling to me.

Buffy's the kind of person who goes with her instincts and doesn't waste a lot of time in recrimination when there's an apocalypse to prevent.

I was talking about the first panels, before she finds out that their space-frak caused a demon invasion.

From Buffy's POV, I interpret these panels the following way: "We found Twilight's lair, discovered that he is Angel, so there is nothing to worry about. Angel said he did the right thing - he knows best."
ext_7259: (Default)

[identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 01:08 pm (UTC)(link)
I guess, Whistler's goal was to convince Angel that there are multiple futures, and he, Angel, can change the future of (in?) this particular timeline.

(Or maybe there are different dimensions and this Angel is from a another dimension where Wesley is still alive and he every day begs Angel to find a shrink.)

In any case - where is "our" Angel? Has she been thrown into the future on into another dimension?

I admit, all these time-travel, dimension-hopping puzzles make my head hurt.
ext_15284: a wreath of lightning against a dark, stormy sky (Default)

[identity profile] stormwreath.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 01:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Buffy and Angel are the pawns of the Twilight prophecy, destined to become the gods of the new universe. They start glowing when they come close together as a sign of that. Angel describes it as "their bodies singing" and talks about feeling "joy". Maybe it is a poke at Stephanie Meyer's 'Twilight', but it also seems to be plot-relevant

I have no problem with the idea of the glow making them feel happy, even euphoric; it's the idea that it's somehow overriding their decision-making power that I disagree with. Like you said yourself, Buffy doesn't act afterwards like someone who was coerced into anything. She discovered that being physically close to Angel made her body glow and 'sing', and decided that she wanted to experiment with that rather than flee far away.

"I'm terrified you'll go. You'll leave before we have a chance to explore what this really is, this glow. What if, just once, the right thing to do is also the most wonderful?"


In reality, I think that Angel is responsible for what happened as a result of his actions.

Which appears to be that the bad guys wasted a year in elaborate schemes to "undermine Buffy's moral certainty" rather than just launching an all-out attack on her in issue one, like General Voll originally wanted.


From Buffy's POV, I interpret these panels the following way: "We found Twilight's lair, discovered that he is Angel, so there is nothing to worry about. Angel said he did the right thing - he knows best."

But that's not what happened. She discovered that Twilight is Angel and felt furiously angry and betrayed, not that "there is nothing to worry about". She tried to kill him. She told him to shut up and stop lying to her. She screamed at him, "Why did you put us through this fucking hell for the past year?" - and when does Buffy ever swear like that? She told him to get away from her.

But all the time this was happening, her body was starting to glow in response to his, and Angel was telling her that it wasn't so simple, that there was more going on than she thought. And reluctantly, despite herself, she believed him - because after all, her body really was starting to glow. And she'd somehow acquired superpowers; she could fly, she was almost invulnerable. How? What was going on? Angel seemed to understand more than anyone else, and like I said at the start, Buffy's usually pretty good at working out when someone is on her side or not. When she can trust someone.

Angel might not know "best", but in this particular situation he clearly knows more than Buffy, or Giles, or Willow do. And to quote the commentary from 'Lessons':

DAVID SOLOMON: You know, there's Buffy right there. You see a hole, you jump in it.

JOSS WHEDON: Exactly. I was going to say, I love the rhythm of that. It's just like, "Oh! Oh, a big gaping hole into Hell. Doot!" That's just the definition of a hero.

DAVID SOLOMON: "I'd better jump here."
ext_7259: (Default)

[identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 02:36 pm (UTC)(link)
To sum it up, you think that Buffy's mind was completely clear when she stopped attacking Angel. She stopped because she believed Angel when he said that he did it for her own good. She made the decision to have sex with Angel on her own free will, because was happy to leave her worries behind and enjoy herself.

Okay. This is not how I see these panels, but maybe it's my shipper's bias. ;-)

Which appears to be that the bad guys wasted a year in elaborate schemes to "undermine Buffy's moral certainty" rather than just launching an all-out attack on her in issue one, like General Voll originally wanted.

See, the problem with this kind of logic is that, eventually, it stands behind all totalitary regimes. Fascists, communists - they all justified killing as a necessity to create a better world.

Angel's goal was to juice Buffy up with power at the expense of lives of 200+ slayers. I quote from the #38 blurb: "he was given a clear mission in regard to Buffy - help her reach the next plane, together create a new world, and end all suffering". As a person who lived in a communist state the first half of my life, I see a direct reference to the communist ideology. That's exactly what communists were telling to peasants and workers in 1917 when they were stirring them up to start a revolution.

[identity profile] beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 02:57 pm (UTC)(link)
I still say that talking dog is from the Monty Python episode where a CIA agent goes undercover as a dog to stop Mr Neutron (who, according to the increasingly frustrated narrator, is the single most dangerous person on the face of the planet even though he never actually does anything but fall in love with the neighbour's wife). Between the supposed world danger, the panicking military leaders and the ridiculous love story, it's really quite similar to some other story.

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Because Spike was actually sorry for what he did to the point of getting a soul, and Angel is still all down with the program?

I was funning you about the shipping thing, though! The reason why "Buffy just trusts him" isn't OK is because Buffy shouldn't. At least not on my read of things... since I'm someone who thinks that a guy who thinks it was right to kill Drogyn, order Lindsey's execution, etc. etc. is not someone who ought to be trusted. If she's doing it because she still lurves him, it means she's still got a big blind spot on who Angel actually is. Should we ever geta story where Buffy confronts how dark Angel can be and still lurves him, then I'd go with your story. Absent that, any story about #33-35 that doesn't include Buffy coming to really regret her 'trust' in Angel is a problem for me. It opens up Joss to the critique that he really is no better than Stephanie Meyer.
Edited 2010-08-29 17:32 (UTC)

[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:23 pm (UTC)(link)
(And yes, I think the idea of "Glowhypnol" is mostly a fanwank by people who can't bear to imagine Buffy having sex with Angel any other way. ;-)

As a person who's shipped B/A, who actually likes Angel (when he's not being a tool, then I'll call him a tool) and who has posted ad nauseum way more reason for why Buffy not reaming Angel after coming out of the sexphase...

Yeah, way off base and completely dismissive of your opposition's argument. It's not an accurate summary--you've completely misread it. Which makes sense of why we keep disagreeing if this is what you're reading. :D

You're wrong on the internet.

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:30 pm (UTC)(link)
DNW? did not work?

I agree the greatest problem is making sense of Buffy in a way that's not bad for her. Angel can be spun as being in the gray zone Angel usually inhabits. The best I can come up with for Buffy is that she really was in despair and so decided to jump on the fantasy for a moment since all was lost anyway. Then seeing what she's done, she bounces back to do what she can to make it right. But that does require the story line include the thought that she made a mistake (and not just because the world happened to fall apart as a result). I'm not totally pessimistic about this, but not totally optimistic either.

And yeah, execution is a problem. Even more so are Meltzer's interviews, which taken at face value just destroy Buffy's character in my eyes.

[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Really? It took a long time for Buffy to move past what Spike did in SR. And it took Spike making an incredible life-changing act of amends before she truly accepted him back into her life.

Buffy also understands intinctively that Spike is a good man inside without needing to be walked through it step by step. :-)

Again see above by how long it took Buffy to return to accepting Spike. And no, no one led her step by step except the writers who slowly and carefully showed her reemerging trust in Spike step by slow step.

I love how the AR means Spike/Buffy sex was a no-go in Season 7, but Angel putting on a mask and terrorizing Buffy, demoralizing her with the deaths of her followers means OMG THEY SHOULD SPACEFRAK.

Your two examples are not the same. And the glaring differences are exactly why fans are balking. Because of 1) the immediacy of Buffy jumping Angel's glowstick and 2) the lack of action to prove Angel's version (as compared to the actions of Spike fighting and winning back his soul). Buffy forgiving Spike took time and his demonstration of penance--neither of which are evident in #34 when Angel is unmasked and Buffy goes wild and sexcrazy.



[identity profile] norwie2010.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Sadly, yes. And, since it is a meta commentary itself, i'll refrain from writing my own meta about it. ;-)

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:32 pm (UTC)(link)
Exactly!

[identity profile] norwie2010.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:35 pm (UTC)(link)
More like exploring (the) narrative. Season 8 sums up all the seasons before (well, picking on certain vibes from the seasons before, the comics do not have enough room to fully comment on everything BtVS) and comments on them. Sometimes in a really silly way. Like tongue in cheek all the time. Like adolescent tongue in cheek. Well, MAGGIE the GREAT is keeping me sane, at least. :-)

[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:36 pm (UTC)(link)
DNW: Do Not Want :)

And making sense of Buffy in a way that's not bad for her is requiring a ton of wanking and straining in my head. It's a really big problem for me because she's my character pov. What's more, she's the story's main pov, so if I'm straining... that's not good. I've never strained before in seven years and half a season of comics to understand her pov--not to the point that I hit a brickwall. The characterization issues here are staggering.

Which is why I'm depending so much on the finale because of Joss' ability to characterize BtVS so strongly with voice and he usually has a better line into their inner psyche.

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:36 pm (UTC)(link)
There are lots of ways I could bear to see Buffy having sex with Angel. He could leave W&H and go to Sunnydale and they could get to know each other in a real way. She could deal with his mistakes and his son. He could figure out who she really is now. Their long standing sexual attraction could kick in. They could even live happily ever after.

Not the story I'd want to see written; but not a story I'd complain about either. It'd be a grown-up story. Not just more Twilight crap, which is what the story threatens to cash out as if it goes the way you seem to think it goes.
Edited 2010-08-29 17:36 (UTC)

[identity profile] norwie2010.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:38 pm (UTC)(link)
Uhm, You already know that i fan You. Now got another reason to do it! :-)

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:40 pm (UTC)(link)
I'll have to keep an eye out for that Monty Python episode!

[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:41 pm (UTC)(link)
*high fives*

Page 2 of 5