8.36: The Preview Pages

[maggie2]

So with four days left to go before #36 finally comes out, I figure I'd waste some time pondering the preview pages.  They came out on a pretty crummy day, so I was grumpy when I first read them.  Random thoughts below the cut.

1.  So this is Angel from the future, or at least from 'a' future -- one where 'we' lost the war.  The war in question was in LA, but that may or may not be a purely local deal.  At the end of the preview we find out that future!Angel has some issues with the cheerleader.

The time travel angle has been in play all season long -- at least since #10 when Buffy talked about changing things if she was in a time loop.  Time travel gives me a headache, and I can only hope this is written in a way that doesn't boil down to some "the characters get an infinite number of chances to make things right so nothing really matters" sort of a deal.  The drama of life is that we only get one shot at it (says the woman who wishes she could have a do-over on a daily basis).  

2.  I love that Angel gets smashed by the O.  More call backs to season 2.

3.  DOG shows up.  His first line is "I know I'm a dog.  What a world, right?".  Reminds me of Spike in School Hard talking to Angel about what a world it is where people buy all that Anne Rice stuff.   There are a few other places where DOG sounds Spike-ish.  Fortunately there are places where DOG sounds not at all like Spike.

4. So the world's back the way it was supposed to be.  Fortunatley this is DOG speaking which means we don't necessarily have to assume that we really are playing the "reset and redo as many times as it takes to get it right" game.  The whole idea reminds me of fanfic, much of which is about resetting the game and getting it right.  Which is a perfectly fine and enjoyable game to play -- in fanfic.

5.  Angel pushes the O back into place.  Superpowers already in place then. 

6.  Another joke about balls!  Probably just the usual joke about why dogs lick themselves.  But it'd be cool if DOG turns out to be channeling Saga Vasuki -- a female type would probably be very entertained by the situation.

7.  Mention of Wesley.  Along with Angel's reaction to mention of Buffy makes me think that future!Angel isn't from so very far in (his) future.  The loss of the war rankles, and doesn't seem to be a dim memory.

8.  Angel is twitchy about "chosen".  Immediate reference is that he's twitchy about Buffy, which raises the possiblity that she had something to do with the war that was lost.   DOG asks what they're going to do about that, which Angel takes to be a threatening remark about Buffy.  I'd love it if the subtext here is that Angel is twitchy about who Buffy chose in Chosen, and that's what he ought to do something about.  Probably wishful thinking, since honestly having the first pages be about Angel was disappointing to my Spike-centric self.

9.  DOG is waiting for Angel to feel it.   Could mean Angel's superpowers -- maybe Angel didn't notice he had them when he pushed the O back up.  But this line resonates with FDW waiting for Buffy to feel it -- the weight of her failure.  In this case, Angel could be asked to feel something of how this world has changed.  Dunno.  It's pretty open ended.

There are two possible shoutouts to LOST: DOG looks like Vicent; there's an airplane about to crash.  Certainly the preview reminded me of the un-joy of watching LOST where questions piled up faster than answers were granted.  It's the last arc!  But we knew there had to be some big back story on Angel.  A war weary Angel who has lost everything makes some of Twangel easier to understand.  The cynicism about the inevitable deaths of mortals.  The lack of concern about seeing a world lost (since he's in a world that just got reconstituted after having already been lost).  

My big wish is that DOG be related to Saga Vasuki and/or Willow.  That's a plot line that needs to be joined.  Angel listening to chaos means that the story isn't necessarily selling Angel as the poor hero who just had to become Twilgiht to save the world.  And who knows, maybe they plucked the version of Angel who'd been through the crushing defeat because they knew that was the version that would most easily be their patsy?  Could work.  But time travel and alternative universes need to be employed with care.  Makes me nervous, in a grumpy sort of a way. 

Comments

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

Only real question: Are we seeing the beginning of the Great Twangel Whitewash of 2010? That feels like a very cynical reaction to the preview pages to me, but there you have it. And Twangel already stole the spotlight in what was supposed to be the Riley one-shot, so why should we be surprised that he steals the spotlight from Spike?

If KoC started a "We Hate EEBIL Twangel and Still Think He's EEBIL" Club, I wanna be treasurer.

Anyway, I'm eagerly awaiting wank from the issue dropping. Talking dogs are usually an indicator we're in a Disney movie or Things Are Not Well.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Excellent icon!

They can try to whitewash Angel if they want to. Problem is that in doing so they totally destroy Buffy -- if it takes pages to explain to us that he's really not as bad as he seems, what does that say about Buffy who took all of two lines from Angel to go from trying to stake him to boinking him out of this world?

I'll be surprised if Angel steals the spotlight. Riley isn't a major player; Spike is. Spike has a huge fan base, and you don't make us wait 35 issues for him to show up only to have it be all about Angel. If Spike wasn't to be part of the story line, they should have shuffled him on and off early on and been done with it.

You'll get some of that wank from me on Wednesday, early afternoon Eastern time!

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

if it takes pages to explain to us that he's really not as bad as he seems, what does that say about Buffy who took all of two lines from Angel to go from trying to stake him to boinking him out of this world?

That unlike us, she has supernatural powers of intuition, and understands that Angel is a good man inside without needing to be walked through it step by step? :-)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Problem is that in doing so they totally destroy Buffy -- if it takes pages to explain to us that he's really not as bad as he seems, what does that say about Buffy who took all of two lines from Angel to go from trying to stake him to boinking him out of this world?

That's the lesser of two evils. Either she instinctively knew he was still good, and the text then works to prove to us he's good with many pages to be more convincing. Or she just boinked a guy thinking he's good when he is in fact an evil son of a bitch sometimes--path to hell has been paved with spacefrakking--up, up and away!

The other option I see that would actually salvage Buffy's character would destroy her dignity and bodily autonomy--that she was overcome by the glow. But recent sane!Angel pages are making this appear questionable.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

what does that say about Buffy who took all of two lines from Angel to go from trying to stake him to boinking him out of this world?

From what I've seen of the PTB's of the last two arcs, it's inconceivable for them to question Buffy's all-consuming devotion to her high school boyfriend, and to question that she wouldn't jump him five seconds after the opportunity presented itself. I have an extremely low opinion of Meltzer (and a fic in which Cordy and Spike go banging on his door in outrage in the works) precisely because of this and other moments of massive character fail in the Twilight arc, which was the lowest of the low in a comic I already wsn't thinking too highly of (though, like many, I was optimistic up until at least the Retreat arc). But apparently no one thought Buffy's actions through to their logical "WTF just happened?" conclusion because they have Bangel stars in their eyes - and the fandom's massive wave of criticism has resulted, though they could still admittedly bounce back.

Oh, and the icon is moscow_watcher fulfilling a massive kink of mine for resilient and resolute Buffy and Spike side by side.

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

Maggie, a big "Thank You" for holding up the flag of sanity. :)

As i'm tired (of this strange mess as well as of sleeplessness) i'll just copy&paste what i wrote before:

At this moment in time i think of season 8 as one big meta commentary of BtVS (and stories in general). I cannot make any sense of it otherwise. The DOG/GOD (good call, Elena) licking it's own balls, the "romance" between Buffy and Angel as forced by the writers, the "romance" between Buffy and Xander as no-go area as written by the writers, the slayer spell "unbalancing the world" (the narrative), the powers (writers) messing up the plot, the shout-outs to the superhero genre, etcpp.

Perhaps season 9 will give us back some actual stories - there are enough hints and ideas floating around in season 8 to make compelling (future) stories, but ATM they are all shoved to the background.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

There is a problem when the only way to make the story work is to read it all as meta! But that is the way that works best, isn't it?

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

Sadly, yes. And, since it is a meta commentary itself, i'll refrain from writing my own meta about it. ;-)

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

*Tilts head thoughtfully* Reading the comic as metacommentary . . . that's an interesting take! I kinda like it! And "forced" is the correct way to describe all comic romance (except perhaps Dawn/Xander and Andrew/Watcherdom) because we had nothing from season 7 that foreshadowed any of that crap (and my exceptions are excepted for that reason - Potential showed the special relationship Dawn and Xander had, and anything we saw in AtS showed Andrew in love with his role as Watcher enforcer).

Good reading of what otherwise can be seen as massive narrative fail!

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

More like exploring (the) narrative. Season 8 sums up all the seasons before (well, picking on certain vibes from the seasons before, the comics do not have enough room to fully comment on everything BtVS) and comments on them. Sometimes in a really silly way. Like tongue in cheek all the time. Like adolescent tongue in cheek. Well, MAGGIE the GREAT is keeping me sane, at least. :-)

[ubi4soft.livejournal.com]

There are some things I'm "twitchy" about in the preview:

* all the Lost references had to be pointed out by the fans who watched the show;

* what's the deal with hitting the O (there are three of them in Hollywood)

* if this is Angel from the future, are they talking 'now'? or this is the real/first time beginning of Angel as Twilight? It doesn't compute very well with the (Tw)Angel - Whistler flash-backs from the Riley one-shot

* Angel's clothes looks similar to those from #35 and is opening the portal another consequence of the space-frakkin?

* being twitchy about Chosen .."It falls to me to avert it"..I don't like it.

* I loved the dog! It's hilarious.

* If there's a Wesley mention I expect a Cordy one too.

I'll be waiting for your full report on the issue. I'll get mine in at least week after the release date in Europe (being training on that with Spike:TDYK)

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of references work that way. I didn't pick up the Ten/Rose image back in NFFY, having only watched Dr. Who since then.

The big O is a reference to orgasm. But it could just be Angel randomly knocking down one of the letters. It's just funny to read it that way.

I assume this preview covers events before Twangel/Whistler in the Riley one shot.

Interesting idea about the portal opening.

I have always wondered about why Angel thinks it falls to him to avert it.

The dog is pretty funny!

It'd be great to get a Cordy mention.

I'll be posting as soon as possible. Don't tell anybody, but I'm taking the day off on Wednesday. Four months of waiting for the first issue with Spike in it? I'm weak.

[ubi4soft.livejournal.com]

Four months of waiting for the first issue with Spike in it?

And you're the one with the "Spike shaped hole" in S8. I so much hope to be filled right.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

* Angel's clothes looks similar to those from #35 and is opening the portal another consequence of the space-frakkin?

Looks like that, from now on, every plot hole can be closed with space-frakking. :)

or this is the real/first time beginning of Angel as Twilight? It doesn't compute very well with the (Tw)Angel - Whistler flash-backs from the Riley one-shot

I guess this is the beginning. Later, when PTB understood that Angel don't believe talking dogs and birds, they sent Whistler.

[ubi4soft.livejournal.com]

every plot hole can be closed with space-frakking. :)

Oh, boy!

I guess this is the beginning. Later, when PTB understood that Angel don't believe talking dogs and birds, they sent Whistler.

But if it's the beginning Angel already knows the future. what was the point of Whistler telling Angel about the future, again? Did Angel got dumber or somebody didn't coordinate the stories?

[kerry-220.livejournal.com]

So this is Angel from the future, or at least from 'a' future -- one where 'we' lost the war.

Why does it have to be 'the future' Maggie? King's theory of an alternate or pocket dimension works just as well. It would sit better with the IDW universe and, if you consider this is an Angel who at the end of AtF had lost all his friends and Connor then his motivation is all the more. At that point in Hell A they had lost the war and it was still about a year pre S8 (I think)Alternate dimensions like 'The Wish' have been played with. Time folds in IWRY and AtF.

The thing I'm struck by that seems to be little discussion that this Angel is clearly around the bend. He's talking to a dog. In those other pages we saw him talking to a continous voice coming from a bird, jogger and old woman. He's looking out over a city of lights wishing to see just one light. What's with that?

Oooh, and it would make sense if he was the end of AtF Angel who was human{ish}. I can't recall if we've seen Angel vamping as Twilight so it would explain his lack of vampire traits

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Not sure I can quarrel, I'm not sure I have an opinion. I didn't read King's opinion closely. I only read AtF once, IIRC they ended up poofed back to where they started except that there was no war. So I'm not sure what this theory entails? Returning from the head chopping off to some new point where there actually had been a war? If it's a fancy way to get a post-war Angel without the doubling problem, why not? Or maybe in this dimension, Angel really was gone, and this is an Angel being brought in from any other random timeline.

I thought it was generally assumed that Angel is off his nut. He looked that way in #33, and nothing we've seen since says he's not.

[kerry-220.livejournal.com]

Could what happened in Hell be considered "the War"? They had all but lost at that point (pre the flip)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

I still say that talking dog is from the Monty Python episode where a CIA agent goes undercover as a dog to stop Mr Neutron (who, according to the increasingly frustrated narrator, is the single most dangerous person on the face of the planet even though he never actually does anything but fall in love with the neighbour's wife). Between the supposed world danger, the panicking military leaders and the ridiculous love story, it's really quite similar to some other story.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I'll have to keep an eye out for that Monty Python episode!

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I believe you! I don't think the Lost reference works all that well beyond the crashing plan. The dog doesn't really look like the Lost dog to me.

Plus, Monty Python > Lost. I like when references aren't so recent. The passage of time makes the references more classic. Gets better with age, yeah.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

So it's been a busy couple of days, so not much to add. I like these notes. I'm still very excited for this issue. A few notes:

1. The time travel business does tie in not only with all the previous references (ABH, TOYL, Twilight's camp being three seconds in the future) but also the reset in After the Fall. I don't know if I buy that the story is ultimately going to be meaningless, or that there are infinite resets, though I understand your concern.

2. The pages are very Angel POV, which, if you think about it, is the first time we have seen this in all of season eight. (Not counting the preview page from previous!) Angel gets heroic trappings here--King of Cretins mentioned Superman as a reference, with Angel possibly going to save that plane from crashing. But this is Angel POV so I am not too worried about a whitewash as others above are. Hero is what he thinks he is, and it reads as confused hero.

3. Great call on the big O! Heading for another one. He also crashes through the Hollywood sign, which ties in with Angel-the-celebrity from AtF and, more significantly, with the whole celebrity culture things from Buffy ("Oh God, it's you!") and Twilight (and Harmony and Dracula).

4. LOST references: good catch! The reference is actually to the first & last episode of the show (Jack + Vincent + plane is in the first and last sequence of the series). Note that (spoilers, readers!) LOST ends with basically everyone going to a mind-created dimension where they worked out their issues, ala Twilight. LOST plays this straight, but the fuzzy-wuzzies seems to be not Joss' style, and I think this came through in Meltzer's arc (rickety, to say the least, as it was). So I think I buy that the play here is satire, wherein Angel thinks he's in LOST and the comic "shows" this too, but it's not the real story.

4. I can hear Alyson Hannigan in my head saying "Hey, balls!" excitedly, so I kind like FDW as a theory. Dunno if I actually buy it, or really want it. Saga Vasuki, maybe, though she still feels too much a secondary player to work. Still, someone or something has to be behind this.

5. I'm less invested than you in this being a Spike-heavy issue (obviously!) but I'm not too concerned about the Angel focus of the pages, regardless. I'm anticipating (mainly because of the preview page from way back) that this issue will basically be the "Angel & Spike issue," with both characters getting lots of pages to themselves and their backstories with lots of doubling and ironic contrast so that the next four issues are set to deal with their interactions with Buffy and the gang. Structurally Angel and Spike almost always showed up together in the meta of the story, so I think this issue might just be about both of them. Angel gets the first pages of the issue because he's the surface story (Spike's the subtext one). Just a thought.

7. Wednesday. Can't wait! Also, how cool is the recent Joss interview, where he pretty much confirmed that Angel having his soul thrust upon him, whereas Spike getting it himself, is significant? (If not necessarily to season eight.)

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I like your point #2. Hope you are right about #5. To be honest, I wanted to start on the 'you're back' bit -- and the start here really raises the chance that she's known he's back all along. But we'll find out soon enough!

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I'm really not sure how this Angel could be from the future or even a different future. After all, he's clueless about everything, as we see here, and also in the other preview panels from a month or so ago where things are being explained. Whistler tells him that he's seen the outcome of other futures, not Angel himself. I really think this is just going to a flashback to how it started and this picks up right after AtF at some point, perhaps. Otherwise it's a pretty big narrative fail, I think. Of course he does seem to have powers already...

Angel is twitchy about "chosen".

What I find interesting about that line isn't that he was chosen, but why he was chosen. To me it reads like an insult, that Angel is malleable. It fits along with the other preview pages where the voices are telling him Buffy did this great thing, but as we learn from the Twilight arc, the Universe really doesn't seem to think so. I take this to suggest Angel is being played by the PTB or someone posing as the PTB.

Certainly the preview reminded me of the un-joy of watching LOST where questions piled up faster than answers were granted.

I actually think this might be the point of the Lost shoutouts. There just isn't enough time to explain all the hanging threads and this might be Whedon's way of acknowledging it. Sort of like the Third Act joke in Chosen.

We've seen pretty much 1/3rd of the issue so far and it looks like it will be all exposition. There has to be at least 2-3 more pages of Angel stuff and then the Spike stuff. Whatever isn't answered in this issue regarding all Twilight setup probably isn't going to get an answer, IMO.

What's sort of irksome is that the summary for this or the next issue says Spike knows the source of all Buffy's trouble--and it's not Angel. So in the end, all this is really about whitewashing him after the fact. Within the story itself, it really doesn't matter what his motivation was, no one knew it. It bothers me as a Buffy fan to see her character inexplicably being chucked under the bus for the sake of the story and then Joss going to such lengths to slap a white hat on the bad guy.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I'm confused about how you are reading this. To me this scene is set before the Whistler scene in the Riley one-shot. Angel is clueless because he's been thrown back into a world that's been reset. Whistler later tells him about a bunch of other possible timelines.

Angel did get insulted about being doggedly simple (i.e. the easiest pasty for the PtBs to go after).

I share your worry in your last paragraph, but an waiting to see.