After After the Fall

[maggie2]

This is not a wrap up of After the Fall.  Nor is it a continuation of the many rants I've ranted about After the Fall.  It's got a few criticisms in there (cause I just can't help myself), but mostly this is a meditation on why I have gotten so negative about a work that actually isn't the worst piece of fiction ever written.  It helped me to work this through and it might be of interest to some cause it has reflections on the status of an author tapped to continue a fictional universe created by someone else.

 

It’s finally over.   #17 was a good way to wrap things off and had some good moments.   It’s getting a well-deserved good reception.

 

But, alas, praising AtF is not my particular strength. As I’ve made clear in various rantings in my own comment sections and in other people’s comment sections, I’m not, to put it mildly, a fan of either Lynch or AtF.  There’s no point in re-hashing all of that, and in any case at this point what is more mysterious to me is why I can only read Lynch’s stuff anymore in pure bashing mode. Because while I think I have real valid criticisms, it’s just not all that bad. I can see that. But my negative is pushed on so strong that even the good stuff irritates me because it’s one less stick I can use to bash the poor guy with.

 

So what the heck is my problem? Before getting to that, I do want to make three general criticisms, sort of a “needs improvement” section for Brian.

 

1. The book was too cluttered with characters.   There was a lot of story to tell and character to develop and it just didn’t help to have to spend pages on so many characters, many of whom appear to be in the book for the sole purpose of giving something to the fans who said “I sure hope character X shows up.”

 

2. There’s too much telling and not enough showing. There are many reasons I don’t attempt fanfic, but the big one is I’d be all about the telling. But good writing is about the showing. Here we get explanations for how the dragon got its name, or why people are feeling what they’re feeling and so on. I know it can be shown cause other writers do a better job of showing rather than telling.

 

3. A series of minor annoyances: Lynch’s pet locutions show up in the dialogue of multiple characters (from most to least: Betta George, Connor, Gunn, Angel, Spike);  dialogue is often out-of-character for the sake of squeezing in a joke; a lot of the characters’ sense of humor is shifted over towards Lynch’s sense of humor. (Though how hard is it to not just write in another voice, but with a different sense of humor?) There are places where he hits the characters’ voices well. Lynch is well away from the school of writing that says that if you give Spike enough ‘bloodies’ and ‘soddings’ you’ve captured his voice. But I just wanted to say once that while it’s often good, it’s not pitch perfect – and not all that close to pitch perfect either – at least not to my demanding ears.

 

OK. All of that would be forgiven in a heartbeat if I were on board with the project. And if I were on board with the project I could give a list of good things: an interesting plot, some effective emotional moments, moments of characterization that are insightful or at least engaging, a few good call backs to the series that gave things a bit of depth,. (A special shout out to two that show up in #17: Spike’s promise to kill Angel if he has to, calling back both Cordy and Wes of season 1; the improvement in Angel’s bedside manner when visiting friends who have harmed his son.)

 

But I really am not on board with the project. And I think unfortunately the fact that Brian is not the creator of this verse, and that AtF is not being closely supervised by the creator of the verse gives me more room to worry about and complain about choices Brian makes, because I react to him more like he’s another fan and less like he’s the creator of characters that I love.  

 

The show has an active and on-going fandom because the ‘verse has so many different layers and meanings. And that means among other things that there’s lots of debate between fans who emphasize one set of meanings and fans who emphasize a different set of meanings. In my post about multiple motivations I point out that Buffy’s swan dive in The Gift can be read as heroic, or as suicidal, or as a glorious mix of the two.   In a lot of the controversies that result, fans get particularly attached to one set of readings as against another. I like reading Buffy’s jump as a mix of motives, but I tend to accent the suicidal. I do that because I think the vision of heroism she was trying to live is actually dessicating, and I love reading her story as a commentary on a bad concept of how to be a hero.   (To be clear: it’s not that she isn’t a hero – she is; it’s that she aspires to live by heroic standards that are inhuman and which must inevitably destroy her). So if Buffy got handed off to a writer who really hates the reading of Buffy’s jump as having at least a tinge of suicide to it, I’d find it really annoying. And incomplete. And less. Just as it would be less if I got a hold of the verse and overemphasized the stuff I care about, but at the expense of shedding the text of the multiple meanings it carries.

 

In the case of AtF, my problem is that I was vested in an interpretation of Angel and especially the final episode, NFA, that Brian just doesn’t share.  I think of Angel  as Angelus cursed by a soul; rather than as Angel cursed by a demon. On my reading, Angel is a mask. What’s noble about Angel is that he picks the mask of what he wants to be, despite the fact that his deepest self, his Angelus self is not redeemable. Angel can’t escape Angelus, and that’s his tragedy. Season 5 is the last big epic chapter of Angel’s tragedy. Suffering tends to bring out the Angelus in him, and at the end of season 4 we got the mother of all Angelus-like moves from Angel when he sold out to Wolfram and Hart and mind wiped his friends in order to spare his son from a truly tragic fate. It’s so classic: the good intentions that come from the Angel side of the man; with the truly reprehensible methods coming from the Angelus side of the man.   By the time Angel realizes how far he has fallen, his only way back out is to take a series of actions which arguably just compound the original sin: he kills an innocent man, orders the cold-blooded execution of another, and leads his team into a suicidal mission that by his own reckoning cannot have any meaningful impact on the world.   It’s really dark, and really bleak, and incredibly great because as horrifying as Angel can be, he can also be amazing. His capacity for good and evil is epic, and that’s what makes him so compelling. A modern call back to the grand characters of literature and myth.

 

Well, there are a lot of fans who’d rather read Angel as a good guy who sometimes gets possessed by this evil guy named Angelus; and who makes a few mistakes but is basically a hero; that what he does is heroic because he does what heroes do; and that the compelling part of Angel’s story is that for all the good he tries to do in the world he (a) is never going to forgive himself for the stuff Angelus did, even though he should and (b) is the victim of an epically bad run of luck, what with having his son kidnapped, and then going bad and all that.   This reading typically comes with a lot of justification about what people are permitted to do when they are being pounded on by fate and/or what they are justified in doing in the cause of fighting evil. 

 

Although I strongly prefer my reading to this other one, I think the real brilliance of AtS in general and NFA in particular is that both readings are there. It’s that same dizzying dissonance you get when you think about Buffy’s jump.   It’s so true to the human condition where we can be the as noble as angels or as vile as beasts, often at the same time; and true to a human condition where our finite perspective shapes what we see. Is this someone we like? We see the good. Is it someone we don’t? We see the bad. (This whole dissertation is because I’m in the mode of not liking Lynch and therefore seeing the bad. I can see it’s a finite perspective, but it’s my finite perspective and I’m stuck with it.)  

candleanfeather keeps using the word “polysemic” to describe the ‘verse: it has multiple meanings. That’s its essential feature.

But part of the fun is arguing with others in favor of our own meanings and against theirs. And my problem with AtF is that Lynch seems to emphasize the set of meanings that I’d like to treat as secondary. And worse, unlike all the other fans I get to argue with on a level footing, he gets the keys to the kingdom and gets to write the “canonical” continuation of the show in a way that canonizes the meaning I don’t like and marginalizes (at best) the meaning I find most compelling.   That’s why I move from justifiable criticisms (like the ones listed above, or the general one that he’s depriving the ‘verse of its multiple meanings and layers) to a generic stance of just not liking anything about the work at all.  I’m a sore loser. It’s bad enough that meanings are being stripped away; unforgiveable that the ones being stripped away are the ones I am invested in.

 

There is an utterly related phenomenon having to do with how Lynch writes my favorite character Spike. Spike is a character who can be read in highly divergent ways – he’s easily the most polarizing character in the ‘verse. Lynch actually likes Spike. I have no doubt about that. But he’s only got a Spike with some of Spike’s layers and meanings; and the ones he’s dropped are the ones I’m particularly attached to. In fanfic it’s a given that you are going to get these sorts of partial meanings and interpretations of a character. They are often quite delightful, all these different Spikes. But none of them have the status of being a “canonical” continuation of the character. And it’s enraging to see some guy who doesn’t seem to have any loftier artistic vision than the typical fan get the right to install his finite readings of my favorite character into canon. 

 

So I think this is what drives my rejection of AtF. Brian doesn’t see things the way I do, and I don’t see why he should have more standing than any other fan to legislate his perspective into “canon”. With Joss, it’s different. I might not always agree with Joss’s choices. But (a) they are his characters and (b) he delivers work that is capable of multiple readings. Just check out the fierce debates about whether or not Buffy the Bank Robber is a completely organic development in the saga of Buffy the Vampire Slayer or (more importantly) whether or not it’s a good evolution for her, or an understandable one, or one that’s not a good evolution but understandable, or one that is flat out repulsive.  Whatever you want to say on behalf of AtF (and there ARE things to be said on its behalf), it hasn’t generated anything like the dispute about interpretation that season 8 generates. That’s because it’s not as polysemic as an authentically Jossian work.

 

Sidebar: it’s worth noting that Joss made a remark in one of the recent interviews about Dollhouse that the show can be read as a feminist text AND as a misogynistic text and that it’s intentional that it should have both meanings.   If I heard that right, it explains a lot – not least of which is that the question of whether The Chosen was sufficiently feminist in its meaning really is an intentionally open question.  In any case, like I said, the key characteristic of the ‘verse is that it’s meant to be polysemic. (I love that word. I’ve tried to say it at least once every few days since Candleanfeather sprang it on me).

 

A final word is that Brian compounds the problem for me by interacting with us “fans” on the internet. He spends a LOT of time on-line soaking up feedback. He visibly desires and seeks out positive strokes. And he gets quite prickly and sometimes even nasty if the feedback he gets is not so friendly.   I think what happens is that Brian wants the status of being the creator, but a lot of fans like me are reacting to him as though he is just one of many other fans. He claims a certain infallibility for himself since he’s the writer, but he’s not a writer playing in his own ‘verse – he’s playing in a ‘verse that we’ve all been invited to play in and which we have been playing in for some time. He has a right, obviously, to tell the story he wants to tell. But when he gets snippy and huffy in response to people who don’t’ see the characters the same way he does, well, it just exacerbates my feeling that I don’t like the guy or his work. And it’s too bad – since people I respect obviously find much to appreciate in AtF. Maybe someday, when I have more distance, I will too.

Comments

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

OK, this is seriously creepy. I was going to say almost exactly the same things in the AtF roundup post I'm working on - did you read my mind, or just hack my computer? ;-)

For now, yes on just about everything here. And I'll second your love for the word "polysemic."

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

ETA: I'm not quite as upset by it as you are, though. It's just a little too much... meh.

[shapinglight]

I'm not sure I can do a round-up post of the whole series, but I'm looking forward to reading yours.

Also, I did love the last issue, but then I'm a Spangel 'shipper.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Oh, it's not likely to round up everything about the whole series, just air my grievances with it. ;-) Which, as it turns out, are very similar indeed to Maggie's, but mine have cameos by Darla and Arnold Schwarzenegger.

And yeah, the last issue wasn't bad, Spangely subtext and all, and "Untrunk me!" may be the funniest line of the series. I'm just not sure I like where it leaves the story, but it's very unlikely that I'll follow it any further anyway, so no big for me.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Either way I must have been channelling Willow, huh? I look forward to your more tempered version of things. And Darla and the Terminator? Yup. I'm looking forward to it.

[shapinglight]

Sigh! And there was me just posting about how much I loved the last issue, but that's mainly because of its Spangel 'shippiness - or the closest to Spangel 'shippiness anything 'official' is going to get.

Otherwise, yeah - I know what you mean.

To see it from another perspective, in my own fanfic, I nearly always emphasise the opposite set of meanings - the ones you like - but of course I'm not claiming to be writing anything else but fanfic.

ETA: oh and what I write has a lot more porn in it.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Do understand that this is just me fussing with whatever it is that's keeping me from fully enjoying the good stuff. Cause good stuff is there. And with this issue: for the first time I really had zero complaints. And even a couple nice things to say. So yay.

I'll have to spend more time with your fanfic!!

[shapinglight]

Well, most of it's slash so it may well not be your cup of tea.

And fuss away. I don't see why not. I would probably fuss a great deal more myself if I didn't feel like I have BL looking over my shoulder all the time.

Thinking back, 17 is the only issue of this comic I've unequivocally enjoyed, and any issue with Spider in it has automatically been blighted no matter how good it is otherwise.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

I liked it! *G*

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Somehow I kinda had that impression! I'm hoping that by hacking through all my discontent, I can find a better spot in myself where I can really enjoy the stuff that really is likeable!!

[next_to_normal]

Interesting thoughts, especially since I agree with your three criticisms, yet have no problem liking the comic. I think what it comes down to for me is this - first and foremost, I want to be entertained. I like meaning, and if I can have both entertainment and meaning in the same work, brilliant, but if I have to choose one or the other, I'd rather be entertained. If all I want is a mental exercise, I have academic studies for that. That's why I enjoyed ATF and not season 8 - the former is mainly entertainment, the latter mainly unentertaining thinky thoughts.

Also, I have to say that I put Brian a step above the average fanfic writer, simply because no fanfic writer has ever had the opportunity to have conversations with Joss and been provided with a detailed outline (including dialogue) of what Joss would have done. Sure, Joss' role dwindled to basically nothing as the series went on, and Brian most certainly did things that weren't dictated (or even liked) by Joss, but he does have a starting point that is head and shoulders above the rest of us, and so I have to account for that in my consideration of ATF. To me, it's not about a particular fan getting his fanfic canonized - it's about a fan getting the dream job of continuing the story with Joss' blessing.

But he’s only got a Spike with some of Spike’s layers and meanings; and the ones he’s dropped are the ones I’m particularly attached to.

I guess my thing here is, that happens in every episode. Isn't that why season six generates such conflicting interpretations? Because in one episode, Spike is clearly being humanized and made sympathetic, and in the next the "bad boyfriend" anvils are being dropped all over the place. It all depended on who was writing that particular episode. It's just more noticeable because this is one person writing a whole stretch at once, rather than the mix of writers on the TV series, but then again, ATF isn't the be-all, end-all of Spike's characterization anymore than any single episode is.

*shrug* I don't know. Maybe I'd feel differently if I didn't like ATF. I'm appalled at the idea of season 8 being canon, probably just as much as you are about ATF, but then again, I think that's more disappointing because it IS Joss writing it, so it ought to match the vision of the TV series, and for me, it barely rises above the level of crackfic. My expectations are a little lower for ATF, and I think it aptly met them.

I will say that, on a personal level, I was rather annoyed at Brian's recent "I'm the writer, this is what happened, and what I say is gospel" attitude, but that doesn't change my view of the comic any more than the writers' similar comments about the TV series affected my interpretation of events there.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Agree that Brian has the benefit of Joss's blessing. But I do read Joss as distancing himself from AtF in his recent interviews -- which is good for me because otherwise, massive cognitive dissonance.

I disagree with your take on Spike's portrayal in the show. Yes, different episodes brought out different sides of Spike -- he's a complex guy, he looks different in different situations, and he looks different from different perspectives. But I can tell a story about him that holds all those pieces together. I don't think there's anything in the series (or AtF) that made me think Spike was being made to do something that just didn't fit. Maybe a bit of dumbing down in AtS to make him a bit less threatening to Angel's status. But other than that, a rich portrait of one of the most interesting characters ever. It's a strength that you can't summarize Spike in one sentence or in one episode.

The problem with Lynch's Spike is exactly that you CAN summarize him succinctly. Maybe not in a sentence, but for sure in a paragraph. And that paragraph would hold ALL of Lynch's Spike. That paragraph lacks a sense of Spike's history, and a corresponding sense of how all the pieces that make up Spike fit together. Now, if I were writing fanfic, my Spike would also inevitably be a smaller Spike than the actual Spike. And compared to a lot of fanfic, Lynch's Spike is pretty good. It would take a whole paragraph to capture him. In a lot of fanfiction, a sentence would do.

I don't mind good entertainment. I just couldnt' be entertained when my ox was being gored. The story I was vested in wasn't continued by Lynch. It's not that he wasn't continuing the story at all... he was. He just wasn't continuing the story with the sets of meanings that I was watching. As a result, that never once was Angel in the book. Or Spike. Or Wesley. Or Lorne. Not for me. Now, I can read plenty of fanfic where the author isn't writing about my story. Indeed, that happens more often than not. And it's often entertaining. But I think I can relax and enjoy it because fanfic is a democracy. Everyone's entitled to their reading of the canon, and the way they want to continue those stories in fanfic. But as you said, Lynch got tagged with this special status. And with that comes the burden of telling a story that's big enough for us all. This one wasn't big enough to include me. So .... me all pissy.

[next_to_normal]

It seems like you're separating "TV series Spike" from "After the Fall" Spike, whereas I'm saying separating out "After the Fall" Spike is akin to separating out "School Hard" Spike or "Crush" Spike. Of course you're not going to get a full picture, because you're only looking at one of the pieces. You said it yourself - "he looks different in different situations." ATF is only one situation. It's not really fair to hold up one limited-run comic series against seven seasons of television and say, "TV Spike is way more complex and developed than comic Spike." Of course he is - he had many more years of being placed in different situations, and many more different perspectives provided by a multitude of writers.

While ATF Spike certainly doesn't cover every facet of his personality, the ones it does address don't seem to be out of character or contradict what we saw of Spike on the show, so I don't understand the need to divorce the comic version from the TV version in summarizing him, any more than you would try to analyze season 8 Buffy without considering her character in seasons 1-7.

[rahirah]

I think I have to agree with eowyn - the reason TV Spike has so many layers is that he's had many writers over many years, all of whom saw him a little differently, and all of whom needed to use him for different things in different episodes and different seasons. And Lordy, when those layers were being added, people screamed bloody murder. Spike's been completely ruined as a character at least six or seven times by my count. *g*

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Brian most certainly did things that weren't dictated (or even liked) by Joss

Anything in particular you were thinking of? The "liked" part struck me a bit since I wasn't aware of Joss speaking against AtF. He seems to have taken a 'mum's the word' stance on the subject after saying "Good luck!"

[next_to_normal]

Well, the "liked" is sort of my interpretation, but Brian mentioned that Joss basically said, "Don't bring Cordelia back," and then Brian did it anyway. Granted, he didn't "bring her back" as in resurrect her, but she does make a pretty significant appearance, which seemed to be contradictory to what Joss wanted. (He thought her exit was big and complete, and there wasn't a further story to tell with her.)

I highly doubt that Joss would come out and say he disagreed with anything Brian did in ATF, though. If he didn't like it, he'd probably just stew quietly (and maybe refuse to work with him on the Spike series).

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

See, I suppose I have a different view of how involved Joss ever was with AtS to begin with. He was never the one in direct charge of managing the show. AtS was, at its birth, very much David Greenwalt's baby with Joss maintaining his focus on BtVS. Then it became Minear's baby while Joss focused on BtVS and later Firefly. And then it became Fury and Bell's baby, while Joss focused on talking people into making Serenity. Not to say that Joss didn't contribute essential things to AtS (he was the one who thought up that Darla be pregnant when she returned and thus he initially thought up Connor). But most of the actual running of "AtS" fell to other people. That's the way that Joss always handled the Angelverse. He was never particularly hands-on with this show.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree. I use "Joss" as a shorthand for Joss or people hired by Joss who (big caveat) are able to write with the same polysemia. (Is polysemia a word? with the same multiplicity in meanings). That said, I also think AtS was more uneven that BtVS. Bottom line, though: enough layers in AtS to generate controversy about how to understaned the show or the characters; and I don't see what there is to chew on with AtF. So either Joss just made a poor hiring decision, or there was less oversight, or Joss has just accidentally created complex works all those other times and this time wasn't so lucky -- but however it happened, this just doesn't feel "Jossian" to me. Of course if we suddenly get buckets of meta showing how all this really is a rich and interesting stew, then yay. Mrs. Underhill is the best reader of Angel I know. And she does have interesting things to say about the comics. But not the same meticulous, detailed, rich stuff she can come up with for random episodes of AtS.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

Very well-written. I agree with many of the things you said.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Cheers, Maggie. Where do I buy a yearlong pass for this train I'm riding with you?

My problem is that I'm very able to enjoy reading After the Fall in the moment. And it is a great story. But when I put my critical thinking cap on, things start to go awry. It seems like your critical thinking cap is on the moment you open the book. For me, I find great satisfaction from the reading of AtF, but less so as I try to incorporate it into the greater AtS story.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you can enjoy it. I am just so very petty, that I can't. And ironically at the very very heart of it is that I just don't think he's done well by my vampire. If you take away Angel's greyness (and with it any weight to the fact that Angel was cursed with his soul), then the "whose vamp is better" game goes to Angel, no questions asked. Angel is the alpha leader (which is always true); but on this reading he is also the standard of what a champion should be -- the successful big brother that the little brother has to compete against. You can like Spike on this view, and Brian does -- and this view is clearly a part of the big picture. But you're missing the part where Angel has to learn something from Spike, becaues unlike Angel Spike was NOT cursed with a soul. In the show, Angel is all too aware of this comparison which is unfavorable to him. And that kept a balance for me. Angel is the epically large alpha leader, but morally dubious; Spike is the figure nobody sees coming, but with a much truer moral compass. The drama was whether Spike's loyalty to the alpha was going to trump his own judgments. In the end it looked like it was starting to. And the story we'll never be told is how the two of them would have worked out that dynamic. Anyway back to juvenile reactions: he took away my vampires best asset, or at least turned it into a non-issue. Then there's all the female fodder Brian's thrown at Spike, none of which does justice to the man we learned about in the Spuffy arc. And as Deborah has observed, how happy can a Spike-centric fan be with a work that inspires anti-Spike fans to thank Brian for finally showing what a total loser Spike is.

Me grumpy.

[candleanfeather.livejournal.com]

B. Lynch's status in regard to the verse is hard to define.
Technically speaking he is a writer and an author, but as you said yourself:
- he plays with someone's else creation
- he isn't integrated in JW's staff, nor does he work under JW's control (in spite of some input) or this of any of the original creators
- Atf is canon but isn't season 6 either...

As for B Lynch's attitude,if irritating for some of its aspects, after seing him in his interview, I'd look at it with some indulgence. He seems to be, I could be wrong of course, a very young person and author, probably not so sure of himself, of his strengths as a writer as he appears or tries to appear to be, and as someone who has put much work and love in what he has done is hurt by negative remarks. So yes, for the moment being, B Lynch's approach to fans isn't one of a confirmed professionnal but he is probably learning. His talent has to mature, gain depth and texture,he has to learn to cut on certain self indulgences in his writing, but these lacks I see as these pertaining to someone who is at the beginning of his career and is learning.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree with your assessment of Lynch. And we're not the easiest fandom to work with. I imagine it was really hard for him to adjust at first being dropped into the canon pool without Joss as a life-raft and stalwart partner working on the piece. If he's defensive now, it's because he's felt the need to defend himself as fans fight over the canon status of his work and Joss watches (or perhaps doesn't even watch) from afar in silence.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. I just can't emotionally go there (at least for now) because I'm not being so grown-up about this. The complaint in a nutshell is that he and I have rival views of the verse, and that whereas the show was always big enough for all sorts of views, Lynch's being handed the franchise means he gets to dictate his views to "canon" at the expense of mine. I am a sore loser. Sore losers aren't charitable to the winners. I am not charitable to Brian Lynch.

But if I can step back from that, then sure -- he'll mature as a writer. (Though he's mid-30's, I think, so not THAT young). And it's true that it would be hard to write in this situation.