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maggie2 ([personal profile] maggie2) wrote2009-01-12 05:27 pm

Spike and Season 8

It's not so obvious to me that Spike isn't going to play a role in season 8

 

I’m under the impression that a lot of people assume that Spike will certainly not figure in season 8, and that Joss either never was interested in Spike (or Spuffy) or he views that story as settled and is just moving on.   Of course, we won’t know until the tale is done, but it does seem to me that it would be very strange if the same writer who knew that Angel marked Buffy for life didn’t think that Spike, who played at least as major a role in Buffy’s story, could vanish from her story without trace. But all I want to argue for here is the proposition that based on what we have seen in the first 21 issues, there is plenty of room for Spike to enter the story, perhaps even in an important way.

 

Before getting to the text, it’s worth observing that Scott Allie has said (Slayalive Q&A #20, question 4) that Joss has the right to use the characters in Angel as much as he likes. There thus seems to be no contractual reason for Spike to remain offstage. All that will matter is what the story demands. 

 

While I wouldn’t go so far as to argue that the story demands that Spike play a role, there is a fair amount of text at this point that would retrospectively set up his appearance.

 

1.   Buffy is the main character of the series. (Duh). When last we saw her, Spike was arguably the most important person in her world – the one who was in her heart, the one with whom she shared the fiery hands of passion, the one whose name was the last word she spoke in the entire series, the one with whom she spent what could well have been her last night in the world, the one who stood by her when all her other significant folks kicked her out of her own house, etc. etc. etc. The status of Buffy’s relationship with the person who was so very important to her was left hanging at the end of the story. It matters how it is resolved. Really. Angel hung over her story for years. It’s unreasonable to think that Spike vanished without a trace in 18 months, or that the resolution of Buffy's story with Spike is insignficant.

 

And it’s not like the writers of season 8 are insensible of the fact that romantic story lines from season 7 need to be resolved in season 8. Pretty much the first thing we learn about Faith in #6 is that Robin ended up not surprising her – she’s still very much alone. It took a while, but we finally learn that Xander really did spend some serious time mourning Anya (#13). If Joss really wanted to close off the Spike/Buffy story line, he’d have done so much the way Faith/Robin got closed out. He didn’t.

 

2. On the contrary, one of the first things Joss tells us about Buffy is that she doesn’t know the significance of the Immortal to either Angel or Spike.  It opens the door to the possibility that she does not know that they tried to track her down in TGIQ. Far from closing the story down, Joss offers a tantalizing detail that reminds us that we really don’t know where things stand between Buffy and Spike.

 

3. There is the mysterious absence of Spike from Buffy’s dream space (#3), where every other significant figure in her life is present. (With the possible exception of Hank). Angel is here, as is Riley. Tara, and Dawn, and Faith, and, Joyce, and all the major villains and the Scoobies. There are cubes from early in Buffy’s life through season 7 (Xander with an eye patch; Caleb).   There are three ways I can think of to account for this fact. (a) The scenes and figures drawn were chosen by Jeanty and have no particular significance. But Enisy asked Allie about this, and Allie says that Joss did interact with Jeanty both about what should be there and about what should not be there (Slayalive Q&A #19, question 6). (b) Buffy really doesn’t see Spike as an important person in her life (beyond his usefulness in her erotic fantasies).   That defies imagination. Whether it’s the fiery hands of passion or the bathroom scene, Spike has impacted Buffy enormously, both in good ways and in bad ways. (c) The absence is significant in a way that has yet to be revealed.

 

4. Buffy finally mentions Spike in A Beautiful Sunset sandwiched between Angel and Riley. As already noted, both Angel and Riley figured in her dream space. They’ve also both (now) appeared in the series. Angel in a nod to what lies firmly behind Buffy (#20); and Riley as either a villain or an undercover ally (#19). If two of the three major loves in Buffy’s life deserve a role in the series, it is even stranger that Joss couldn’t be arsed to close out a dangling thread about her most recent romantic involvement. 

 

5. There are plenty of places where one can read resonances with Buffy’s history with Spike, things that could take on different shades if Spike turns out to be part of this story.   In the first battle we are shown, Buffy is in a church killing a demon with a cross. The last time we saw Buffy in a church with a demon, the demon was draped on the cross in one of the most arresting images of the entire series.   General Voll points to the crater at Sunnydale and says “look what she did to her hometown”. But when Buffy last had anything to say about what caused that crater, her answer was “Spike”.   In Buffy’s dream about Xander, she promises to be gentle “this time”, yet knocks off Xander’s head and worries about being dark. There are resonances here with her not-so-gentle relationship with Spike, which was epitomized in the alley scene in Dead Things where she didn’t quite knock his head off. Buffy even says “oh balls” here, which is a line that comes from that scene in DT. Ethan’s entrance into her dream is teased as Spike (we just see his Spike-like clothes at the end of #2) and Buffy explicitly objects to him calling her “pet”.    Skipping ahead, and going in less detail: Dracula’s relationship with Xander mirrors in some ways Spike’s relationship with Buffy (evil vampire crossing lines to help the good guys because of love); Willow tells Frey that the most important men in Buffy’s life are lurks (and that that fact makes it too simple to say that Buffy’s life is about eliminating them); and in the most recent issue we have Clem and Harmony allied, the two demons who were friendly with Spike during his time in Sunnydale. None of these allusions or references have to mean anything. But they are available to mean something if Spike turns out to figure in the story. 

 

So we’ll see. It’s true that we’re nearly two years into the comics. But we’re also just over half way through the “season”. And in many of the seasons on Buffy, the real contours of the season aren’t revealed until the second half. It’s too soon to claim that Joss is going to pay no attention to Spike.  Indeed, I tend to think that the strange absences and silences point to a larger role rather than a smaller one – since the failure to close out Spike/Buffy quickly seems to demand some sort of pay-off when the story finally is continued.

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[personal profile] next_to_normal 2009-01-12 11:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Hmm... I certainly agree with you that Spike could show up, but that's based more on the fact that there's nothing that absolutely precludes it than any hunch I have that he will show up.

If Joss really wanted to close off the Spike/Buffy story line, he’d have done so much the way Faith/Robin got closed out. He didn’t.

As you pointed out, it's not like Spike hasn't been mentioned at all. Obviously, he appears in Buffy's threesome fantasies with Angel. And we did get "people who love me tend to die" with a particular reference to Spike. I wouldn't put it past Joss to think that "closes off" the Spuffy story line sufficiently - she still thinks about him occasionally, but clearly things between them are over enough that she's not going to find him or expecting him to show up, even though she apparently knows he's alive. Which brings me to point number two...

It opens the door to the possibility that she does not know that they tried to track her down in TGIQ.

According to Scott Allie, we can assume Buffy knows everything that anyone in her organization knows, including Andrew. (Personally, I think this is a ridiculous premise for a group that has been hellbent on keeping secrets from each other for seven years, but I'm not the editor.) That means she knows Spike's alive, and she knows he and Angel came to see her in Rome, and she apparently didn't do anything about it. That doesn't bode well for her still having feelings for him - and if she really is over him, then there's nothing to "close off," is there?

If two of the three major loves in Buffy’s life deserve a role in the series, it is even stranger that Joss couldn’t be arsed to close out a dangling thread about her most recent romantic involvement.

True, but Angel wasn't really there, as in his actual post-NFA (or post-ATF at this point) character showing up in the present day storyline. So even if Spike does make an appearance, there's no guarantee it will be him in the flesh and not a dream sequence or flashback or something else.

To be honest, I don't think any future appearance by Spike warrants this conspicuous absence in earlier issues. Would it be giving anything away for him to appear in her dream space? It's not like those cubes tell us how she feels about any of it, just that they're there in her mind somewhere. Would it really spoil anything to show that Buffy missed or grieved for him the way Xander mourned Anya? I think we all pretty much assume it happened (it's only natural), so it wouldn't be telling us anything we didn't sort of already know.

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2009-01-13 12:29 am (UTC)(link)

The closing off has to be more than just a mention that Spike exists. At the ending of The Chosen, Buffy's feelings about Spike were made deliberately ambiguous. The question about Buffy's feelings have weight beyond the shipping angle. Spike represented a closure to her whole vampire arc that began when Angel went bad and concluded when Spike gives himself up to save the world. This is all about Buffy's relationship to the dark side of herself, and we need to know how Buffy felt about it if we want to understand her. (Just like it would be impossible to understand Buffy in seasons 4-7 if we didn't know how things "resolved" with Angel).

The line about the Immortal in the opening pages of LWH directly contradicts Allie. Buffy does NOT know why Andrew wanted to set the fake slayer up with the Immortal. I agree that it's more likely than not that she knows the raw fact that Spike is back. But we still don't know how she understands that fact, since she's missing at least some information. The fact that it could go either way means that the story is open. And if the story is open, that means that there's a good chance that the resolution of that story (or the revelation of exactly how that story was resolved) will play a role in season 8.

I agree that we don't know whether Spike will make a flesh and blood appearance. But I think somehow the story about him will be important. And I do think it carries weight that Joss brings Angel up specifically in the context of a past to which Buffy can't return. It tells us a bit about how to understand the cookie dough speech, for example.

My point about Spike's absence in the dream space is not that it's meant to conceal something. Just that it's distinctly odd that he's not there, and that his absence of itself could well turn out to ber significant.

[identity profile] sueworld2003.livejournal.com 2009-01-13 12:38 am (UTC)(link)
Pimping this on my lj by the way.

I do hope that Spike doesn't make an appearance in season 9, because I just don't trust Joss and co to be able to use the character without f*cking him over in some way.

Personally I don't believe he will make any kind of meaningful appearance in the series as Spike is old news and Joss isn't interested in using the character in any shape or form. Same goes for Angel really. :0

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2009-01-13 12:42 am (UTC)(link)
Thanks for the plug!

I think it's more likely than not that Spike will appear in season 8. But I'm totally agnostic about whether that will be a good thing or exactly what role he will play. As for old news -- Joss is shoveling us under with old news. Riley, Angel, Tara (explicitly mentioned), Parker (alluded to), Faith (a whole arc), Ethan, Warren, Amy, Amy's mother, Harmony, Clem... Indeed, it would be interesting if Spike turns out to be the sole exception to the rule.

[identity profile] sueworld2003.livejournal.com 2009-01-13 12:45 am (UTC)(link)
"My point about Spike's absence in the dream space is not that it's meant to conceal something. Just that it's distinctly odd that he's not there, and that his absence of itself could well turn out to be significant."

Oh I see it as being that Jeanty didn't want him in there (apparently he was partly responsible for what made the grade so to speak), and neither did Joss. They don't want endless reminders of how important he used to be in Buffy's life, and so after one 'bone' thrown to the fans in the form of that fantasy, that was it. They probaly thought that'll shut em up. *g*

[identity profile] sueworld2003.livejournal.com 2009-01-13 12:46 am (UTC)(link)
Unless he turns up as bloody Twilight of course! Oh I kid, I kid...*g*
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[personal profile] next_to_normal 2009-01-13 12:48 am (UTC)(link)
The question about Buffy's feelings have weight beyond the shipping angle. Spike represented a closure to her whole vampire arc that began when Angel went bad and concluded when Spike gives himself up to save the world. This is all about Buffy's relationship to the dark side of herself, and we need to know how Buffy felt about it if we want to understand her.

Hmmm, maybe this is just my shipper perspective, but I don't really see that. I don't really see Spike as a resolution of Buffy's character. Her actions in season 8 have only muddied the waters in terms of her "dark side," so I think the resolution is beyond Spike at this point. If Spike were to come back, I'm sure they could use it for more than just shippy purposes, but I don't think it's necessary. I don't see any need for closure except romantically (which, honestly, I'd rather Joss stay away from. Fanfic is much more satisfying in that regard).

The line about the Immortal in the opening pages of LWH directly contradicts Allie.

Well, it certainly wouldn't be the only continuity error in the comics... In any case, either Allie's an idiot, or he's lying to us. I don't think highly of him, so I'd say either one is equally possible.

[identity profile] sueworld2003.livejournal.com 2009-01-13 12:52 am (UTC)(link)
I vote idiot myself. *g*
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[personal profile] next_to_normal 2009-01-13 12:58 am (UTC)(link)
LOL, I'm starting to feel like this is a competition, to see which of us can be the most cynical. :)

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2009-01-13 12:59 am (UTC)(link)
Buffy's darkness in season 8 is part of what makes me think that there's some story to be told about Spike/Buffy. Just from a thematic point of view (since it looked to be closure and is now apparently not). And also because one of my first thoughts on the reveal that Buffy was robbing banks was that it really impacted how I see Spuffy.

If I'm Joss and I want to walk away from Spike, I wrap him up in an offhand bubble in the first issue -- the way Robin got written off. Joss didn't do that. That's pretty much my bottom line here.

[identity profile] sueworld2003.livejournal.com 2009-01-13 01:02 am (UTC)(link)
Oh god, you've got to really got to get 'pumped up' to match my feelings on the matter love. *g*

I don't trust Allie and co at all I'm afraid.

[identity profile] sueworld2003.livejournal.com 2009-01-13 01:04 am (UTC)(link)
I think he was just throwing us fans a bone I'm afraid, and nothing more.
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[personal profile] next_to_normal 2009-01-13 01:05 am (UTC)(link)
And also because one of my first thoughts on the reveal that Buffy was robbing banks was that it really impacted how I see Spuffy.

Really? How? (And I don't mean that in a snarky way. That's the first time I've ever heard anyone say that, and I'm genuinely curious.)

If I'm Joss and I want to walk away from Spike, I wrap him up in an offhand bubble in the first issue -- the way Robin got written off. Joss didn't do that.

I get that, but I'm seeing it from a much more cynical perspective - it wasn't even important enough to get an offhand bubble wrap-up. I'm not as inclined as some to think that Joss actively dislikes Spike and that's why he's being ignored, but considering the way the comic's been (mis)managed, I certainly wouldn't put it past him to forget something important like Buffy's feelings for Spike (or like, say, that Warren was dead).
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[personal profile] next_to_normal 2009-01-13 01:06 am (UTC)(link)
I'm working on it, lol. But considering I started from a position of pure season 8 love and acceptance before the first issue arrived, I think I've made fantastic progress. :)

[identity profile] sueworld2003.livejournal.com 2009-01-13 01:10 am (UTC)(link)
My god, haven't you just. Think of what you'll be like by the end of the run! :0

[identity profile] sueworld2003.livejournal.com 2009-01-13 01:11 am (UTC)(link)
"I'm not as inclined as some to think that Joss actively dislikes Spike and that's why he's being ignored, but considering the way the comic's been (mis)managed, I certainly wouldn't put it past him to forget something important like Buffy's feelings for Spike (or like, say, that Warren was dead)."

Exactly.

[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2009-01-13 01:16 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, yes, yes! I agree with so many of these points. I've been posting a lot recently about how Spike needs to be addressed in Season 8. You make a very clear argument for how he's been alluded to yet not referenced out loud. How weird is it that we haven't read his name yet in print? It almost seems too obvious, that they're trying too hard not to mention him specifically while referencing him with imagery and situations.

There is the mysterious absence of Spike from Buffy’s dream space (#3)

Do you more specifically mean that Spike is not included in the dreamcubes? Are you not counting the threesome image of Buffy with Angel and Spike in chains in Buffy's dream space where Ethan pulls back the curtains and she hastily shuts them closed? Hmm tirer la couture. Ethan pulls back the curtain to what Buffy's been fantasizing about during her "slow year" and we find Angel and Spike. It's the only time Spike is referenced overtly and Buffy immediately hides the image. It's hidden deep down in her psyche. Perhaps it's too painful to think about...I really don't think she knows he's back yet. She wouldn't just brush off the knowledge that he'd been hiding his return for over a year. She'd be pissed that she was grieving for someone that wasn't dead-dead, just undead and annoying.

[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2009-01-13 01:38 am (UTC)(link)
According to Scott Allie, we can assume Buffy knows everything that anyone in her organization knows, including Andrew. (Personally, I think this is a ridiculous premise for a group that has been hellbent on keeping secrets from each other for seven years, but I'm not the editor.) That means she knows Spike's alive, and she knows he and Angel came to see her in Rome, and she apparently didn't do anything about it. That doesn't bode well for her still having feelings for him - and if she really is over him, then there's nothing to "close off," is there?

Except Issue 1 explicitly states that Buffy doesn't know about why the Immortal dating the decoy is hilarious. Buffy clearly doesn't know everything that Andrew knows and it's established in the first issue.

And I see that Maggie has handily addressed this already, but I'll say that I disagree with that statement that Buffy knows everything that Andrew or anyone in her organization would know. People keep secrets - Season 8 revolves around everyone keeping secrets. Dawn not wanting to talk about Kenny, Buffy not telling Willow about the future, Twilight's mystery identity.

As for Buffy's feelings, the fact that she's fantasizing about Angel and Spike shows us she still cares. The scene in #20 where she holds the cross and says, "Oh Angel" shows us she still cares. The thing that doesn't make sense is her knowing and acting like she doesn't care. It's why I think she doesn't know.

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2009-01-13 01:43 am (UTC)(link)
Thanks!

I meant the dream cubes. If we take all of this as is, it portrays Buffy quite badly: the only impact Spike had on her was sexual. But that's obviously not true, ergo my belief that there's more story to be told, and that the absence of Spike in the dream cube scene will turn out to matter.

I'm totally agnostic about whether she knows or not. Everything that's "evidence" one way could easily be read as "evidence" of the first. Of course, the ambiguity on this question is part of why I think it'll be addressed at some point.

[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2009-01-13 01:48 am (UTC)(link)
I think the fact that it's ambiguous supports the fact that Buffy doesn't know. Spike made a big deal out of keeping his return secret during Season 5 of AtS. Now it would have made sense if Buffy found out after TGIQ...except it wasn't really Buffy and Issue 1 shows she has no clue about the Immortal's significance for her two vampires.

It'd be so easy to settle this the way that the other issues you've shown have been settled - like showing the Faith isn't with Robin anymore. The fact that it's not being dealt with feels deliberate. And I get the feeling Joss is aware he's playing with one of the *biggest* fandom wishes here. How many fanfics have been written reuniting Buffy with Spike, showing her shock at his return? Yeah, he knows it's what so many fans are drooling for.

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2009-01-13 01:50 am (UTC)(link)
Warren's appearance as the First really is a pretty small detail. And I don't think his ultimate non-death does anything to mitigate Willow's ethical/emotional situation vis a vis Warren. How Buffy views Spike, on the other hand, matters. He was really important in her life, and how she sorts that importance tells us things about her.

As for my reaction to Buffy robbing banks -- I have been known to complain about Buffy's handling of Spike in season 6, but have still generally thought that the one sentence description of their relationship is that Buffy inspires Spike to become a champion of the good. How does that work if Buffy herself is now much greyer than she was even in season 6? What would Spike think if he learned that Buffy was robbing banks? Would his love for her trump his own moral compass? Or would his moral compass cause him to see her in a different, more realistic light? That was a live issue in Spike's relationship to Angel (Spike followed Angel into a VERY morally ambiguous action at the end). I just find it interesting, and I want to know more.

Buffy's moral standing vis a vis the "questionable" figures of both Spike and Faith has been interesting. Season 8 has directly tackled the moral inversion between Faith and Buffy. It makes me want to know how the issue would play out between Spike and Buffy.
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[personal profile] next_to_normal 2009-01-13 01:53 am (UTC)(link)
People keep secrets - Season 8 revolves around everyone keeping secrets.

True... in fact, in the bit of my post you quoted, I expressed the same disbelief. But I don't think Scott Allie felt the need to clarify that Buffy knows what Andrew knows purely for his health. Unless he's deliberately obfuscating, we're supposed to assume Buffy knows Spike's alive.

As for Buffy's feelings, the fact that she's fantasizing about Angel and Spike shows us she still cares.

No... it shows she still has sexual fantasies about them. You can have sexual fantasies about someone without caring about them. (Buffy also has fantasies about Daniel Craig, doesn't mean she cares about him other than thinking he's hot.) There's more evidence that she cares about Angel from #20, but so far, nothing comparable for Spike.

The thing that doesn't make sense is her knowing and acting like she doesn't care.

Well, if you're referring to Angel as well with this, we don't actually know what she knows, since After the Fall isn't finished yet. For all we know, Los Angeles could be right back where it's supposed to be (as #21 indicates), so she knows Angel is safe (assuming he makes it out alive/undead).

By the same reasoning, she could know Spike is safe, and even care about him the same way she cares about Angel, but feel no compulsion to contact him, since the relationship is over.

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2009-01-13 01:55 am (UTC)(link)
Well, I can get cynical here. If it weren't for how Twilight was written, Spike would be on my list of candidates for Twilight. In fact, I'd think that would be *very* interesting. But Twilight doesn't sound at all like Spike. Nor does his MO remotely resonate with anything we know about Spike. But here's the cynical note: Joss DOES cheat when it comes to getting "plot twists" (see Spike's soul quest). So that door is open, even though it should be flat not possible.
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[personal profile] next_to_normal 2009-01-13 01:57 am (UTC)(link)
How many fanfics have been written reuniting Buffy with Spike, showing her shock at his return? Yeah, he knows it's what so many fans are drooling for.

And when has Joss ever given fans what they want?
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[personal profile] next_to_normal 2009-01-13 02:07 am (UTC)(link)
Warren's appearance as the First really is a pretty small detail.

The fact that the First can only appear as someone who's died is a pretty HUGE detail that's used in nearly every episode in season seven, sometimes as a plot line (Giles possibly being dead/the First, the First fooling them all by pretending to be Eve). I'd say that's more than a minor oversight, and the fact that Joss forgot made me lose a lot of faith. I don't expect him to be as obsessive about the show as we are, but I expect him to remember basic plot points.

Interesting thoughts re: Buffy's moral greyness. I've seen some people speculate that if Spike comes back, he'll be the one to put Buffy's actions in perspective and prompt an epiphany of sorts. That would certainly be an interesting reversal.

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