Spike and Season 8

[maggie2]

It's not so obvious to me that Spike isn't going to play a role in season 8

 

I’m under the impression that a lot of people assume that Spike will certainly not figure in season 8, and that Joss either never was interested in Spike (or Spuffy) or he views that story as settled and is just moving on.   Of course, we won’t know until the tale is done, but it does seem to me that it would be very strange if the same writer who knew that Angel marked Buffy for life didn’t think that Spike, who played at least as major a role in Buffy’s story, could vanish from her story without trace. But all I want to argue for here is the proposition that based on what we have seen in the first 21 issues, there is plenty of room for Spike to enter the story, perhaps even in an important way.

 

Before getting to the text, it’s worth observing that Scott Allie has said (Slayalive Q&A #20, question 4) that Joss has the right to use the characters in Angel as much as he likes. There thus seems to be no contractual reason for Spike to remain offstage. All that will matter is what the story demands. 

 

While I wouldn’t go so far as to argue that the story demands that Spike play a role, there is a fair amount of text at this point that would retrospectively set up his appearance.

 

1.   Buffy is the main character of the series. (Duh). When last we saw her, Spike was arguably the most important person in her world – the one who was in her heart, the one with whom she shared the fiery hands of passion, the one whose name was the last word she spoke in the entire series, the one with whom she spent what could well have been her last night in the world, the one who stood by her when all her other significant folks kicked her out of her own house, etc. etc. etc. The status of Buffy’s relationship with the person who was so very important to her was left hanging at the end of the story. It matters how it is resolved. Really. Angel hung over her story for years. It’s unreasonable to think that Spike vanished without a trace in 18 months, or that the resolution of Buffy's story with Spike is insignficant.

 

And it’s not like the writers of season 8 are insensible of the fact that romantic story lines from season 7 need to be resolved in season 8. Pretty much the first thing we learn about Faith in #6 is that Robin ended up not surprising her – she’s still very much alone. It took a while, but we finally learn that Xander really did spend some serious time mourning Anya (#13). If Joss really wanted to close off the Spike/Buffy story line, he’d have done so much the way Faith/Robin got closed out. He didn’t.

 

2. On the contrary, one of the first things Joss tells us about Buffy is that she doesn’t know the significance of the Immortal to either Angel or Spike.  It opens the door to the possibility that she does not know that they tried to track her down in TGIQ. Far from closing the story down, Joss offers a tantalizing detail that reminds us that we really don’t know where things stand between Buffy and Spike.

 

3. There is the mysterious absence of Spike from Buffy’s dream space (#3), where every other significant figure in her life is present. (With the possible exception of Hank). Angel is here, as is Riley. Tara, and Dawn, and Faith, and, Joyce, and all the major villains and the Scoobies. There are cubes from early in Buffy’s life through season 7 (Xander with an eye patch; Caleb).   There are three ways I can think of to account for this fact. (a) The scenes and figures drawn were chosen by Jeanty and have no particular significance. But Enisy asked Allie about this, and Allie says that Joss did interact with Jeanty both about what should be there and about what should not be there (Slayalive Q&A #19, question 6). (b) Buffy really doesn’t see Spike as an important person in her life (beyond his usefulness in her erotic fantasies).   That defies imagination. Whether it’s the fiery hands of passion or the bathroom scene, Spike has impacted Buffy enormously, both in good ways and in bad ways. (c) The absence is significant in a way that has yet to be revealed.

 

4. Buffy finally mentions Spike in A Beautiful Sunset sandwiched between Angel and Riley. As already noted, both Angel and Riley figured in her dream space. They’ve also both (now) appeared in the series. Angel in a nod to what lies firmly behind Buffy (#20); and Riley as either a villain or an undercover ally (#19). If two of the three major loves in Buffy’s life deserve a role in the series, it is even stranger that Joss couldn’t be arsed to close out a dangling thread about her most recent romantic involvement. 

 

5. There are plenty of places where one can read resonances with Buffy’s history with Spike, things that could take on different shades if Spike turns out to be part of this story.   In the first battle we are shown, Buffy is in a church killing a demon with a cross. The last time we saw Buffy in a church with a demon, the demon was draped on the cross in one of the most arresting images of the entire series.   General Voll points to the crater at Sunnydale and says “look what she did to her hometown”. But when Buffy last had anything to say about what caused that crater, her answer was “Spike”.   In Buffy’s dream about Xander, she promises to be gentle “this time”, yet knocks off Xander’s head and worries about being dark. There are resonances here with her not-so-gentle relationship with Spike, which was epitomized in the alley scene in Dead Things where she didn’t quite knock his head off. Buffy even says “oh balls” here, which is a line that comes from that scene in DT. Ethan’s entrance into her dream is teased as Spike (we just see his Spike-like clothes at the end of #2) and Buffy explicitly objects to him calling her “pet”.    Skipping ahead, and going in less detail: Dracula’s relationship with Xander mirrors in some ways Spike’s relationship with Buffy (evil vampire crossing lines to help the good guys because of love); Willow tells Frey that the most important men in Buffy’s life are lurks (and that that fact makes it too simple to say that Buffy’s life is about eliminating them); and in the most recent issue we have Clem and Harmony allied, the two demons who were friendly with Spike during his time in Sunnydale. None of these allusions or references have to mean anything. But they are available to mean something if Spike turns out to figure in the story. 

 

So we’ll see. It’s true that we’re nearly two years into the comics. But we’re also just over half way through the “season”. And in many of the seasons on Buffy, the real contours of the season aren’t revealed until the second half. It’s too soon to claim that Joss is going to pay no attention to Spike.  Indeed, I tend to think that the strange absences and silences point to a larger role rather than a smaller one – since the failure to close out Spike/Buffy quickly seems to demand some sort of pay-off when the story finally is continued.

Comments

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I think the fact that it's ambiguous supports the fact that Buffy doesn't know. Spike made a big deal out of keeping his return secret during Season 5 of AtS. Now it would have made sense if Buffy found out after TGIQ...except it wasn't really Buffy and Issue 1 shows she has no clue about the Immortal's significance for her two vampires.

It'd be so easy to settle this the way that the other issues you've shown have been settled - like showing the Faith isn't with Robin anymore. The fact that it's not being dealt with feels deliberate. And I get the feeling Joss is aware he's playing with one of the *biggest* fandom wishes here. How many fanfics have been written reuniting Buffy with Spike, showing her shock at his return? Yeah, he knows it's what so many fans are drooling for.

[next_to_normal]

How many fanfics have been written reuniting Buffy with Spike, showing her shock at his return? Yeah, he knows it's what so many fans are drooling for.

And when has Joss ever given fans what they want?

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

Exactly, more to the point I don't even think he that aware of what the fans are up to shipping wise.

In season 8 he's left all that side of things behind him, and is concentrating on the bigger picture now.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Having Angel appear in End of Days and Chosen, for one.

[next_to_normal]

Point, but then he turned it right around and had Buffy send him away, declare Spike her champion, and profess her love to him. I would wager that any reunion with Spike would likely include that same reversal that would end up being disappointing.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I thought it was dealt with fairly. Angel got this passionate reunion kiss, but Spike got what he'd been fighting for the past three seasons - her trust and a declaration of love. That was the story of BtVS at the time. If anything, Angel's arrival was intrusive at that time. Why not have Anya, Willow or Giles discover this nifty amulet? It was a device to get Angel there in Sunnydale for the finale and the Buffy/Angel moment. And it further served to bring Spike over to AtS.

I don't see it so much as Joss not giving us what we want. Nor as simple as Joss saying he gives us what we need as an audience. Joss teases us with what we want (promise of happiness, love, that romantic kiss, that meaningful connection of lovers or friends) and then he snatches it away to make the story dramatic. Joss is *always* giving us what we want so we can fall in love with the 'verse, then he takes it away so we can mourn it. Willow and Tara's reunion before her death, Fred and Wes finally getting together before Fred dies, Cordy finally kissing Angel for real as herself and knowing she loves him before leaving in You're Welcome.

That's how he keeps the story fresh imo.

[next_to_normal]

Well, IMO, if you keep repeating the same plot device (make 'em happy, then take it away), that's not fresh at all. If he's going to pull the same trick with Spike and Buffy in the comics, then I'm really not going to be interested.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Except wasn't that mostly FOX dictated?

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

Keeping Spike alive when he wanted to kill him because fans loved him. Getting rid of Riley because fans hated him. Bring another lesbian character after killing Tara because the fans were outraged calling him the killer of lesbians or whatever. Making Angel a regular and Buffy's love interest when fans started to drool after him... I'm sure fans influenced Joss' storytelling more than me think.

[next_to_normal]

Thing is, none of those things would've happened just because the fans wanted them. They happened because they made the show better. Spike was kept alive because James Marsters was a brilliant actor and Spike was an incredible character with limitless room to grow. He fundamentally changed the show. So did making Angel a regular - without that, we wouldn't have the Buffy/Angel relationship and Angelus, which was a defining element of both the show and Buffy herself. Riley went away because the relationship wasn't working - the chemistry wasn't there. If fan hatred alone was enough to make a character go away, Kennedy wouldn't have lasted more than an episode.

My point is, Joss has certainly done things the fans liked or wanted - if he didn't, he wouldn't have any fans. But he doesn't do them just because we want them, so if you think fans drooling for a Spuffy reunion is enough to get you one, I'd say you're mistaken. If Joss thinks he can tell a good story by doing it, then yeah, he'll do it. But he's not going to sacrifice the story he wants to tell just for fan service.

[rahirah]

About as many as have been written reuniting her with Angel, I would bet. :D

[angearia.livejournal.com]

And Angel came back every now and then. I'm not naively squeeing for a Spuffy4ever reunion. Just that he's acknowledged. I think that's more than fair. I'm a bit puzzled by the extreme cynicism regarding Spike and Joss. Why?

And Joss is aware of the power of the shipping aspects of the story. It's some of the most popular questions he gets at every event - Spike or Angel? Angel or Spike? Who will Buffy end up with? To say he's unaware after being asked this question for years is being blind to the story he himself crafted. All those scenes he wrote for Spike and Buffy (the end of Beneath You, the end of Chosen, the kiss in OMWF) - Joss has written most of those iconic Spuffy moments. To say he's suddenly unaware of his own story seems a bit ludicrous.

Again, I don't really understand the extreme cynicism with Joss. It reminds me of some fans who stopped watching after Season 3 because Buffy and Angel broke up. Or if they did continue to watch, they ranted about how Joss had corrupted the story by keeping them apart. What is this phenomenon where you love the 'verse but hate the creator? To me they're one and the same. I love BUFFY and I'm thankful to Joss for creating it. I'm thankful for Season 8 and how it's revitalized the fandom.

[next_to_normal]

What is this phenomenon where you love the 'verse but hate the creator?

I love the TV show. I don't love the comics. I'm incredibly disappointed in them (for reasons that have nothing to do with Spike or Spuffy). That's where my cynicism comes in. Joss has proved more than once that he's not infallible. He only gets my trust when he earns it.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Where did he betray that trust? And when has anyone in all of history been anything but infallible? He only gets your trust when he blows your mind on his most amazing days. When he falters, when he struggles or when it doesn't connect, when he becomes more human, he loses trust? When he becomes less perfect and coincidentally more like the characters we love - in those human moments of fault and failure.

If Spike does play a role later on in this season or he gets more firm references, I'm reserving the right to sing 'Na na na na na naaaaaaaaah'. ;)

It's really a moot point, I suppose, until the season is over. I'm enjoying the comics (though I'm still critical of them) and others who feel Joss has betrayed their 'trust' aren't. I guess I'm wondering what motivates those who feel this way about Season 8 to read it. Is it that the curiosity can't be contained even though you're already disappointed with the product?

Sorry if I'm coming off weird here. This discussion just made me very sad. Disillusionment and disappointment. I'm afraid I don't understand your perspective. If you're equating it to being betrayed, than I don't think I'm able to walk in your shoes and understand it. Normally I'm pretty good and judging a topic from different perspectives, but 'betrayal of trust' is a pretty huge emotion to feel regarding fiction.

[next_to_normal]

He only gets your trust when he blows your mind on his most amazing days. When he falters, when he struggles or when it doesn't connect, when he becomes more human, he loses trust?

Sorry, but you're not going to guilt-trip me into anything here. I forgave plenty of clunker episodes because overall, the product was incredible and well worth overlooking the occasional misstep. I went into season 8 with high hopes that it would be an equally high-quality product, and I was sorely disappointed. I have been disappointed way more often than I've been entertained by the comics, and 21 episodes in, I think I've given it more than a fair chance. I'd say that's a perfectly justifiable reason to say that I don't trust Joss to entertain me, at least not with season 8. Doesn't mean I'll never watch/read anything from Joss again, because I've liked plenty of his work. Just not all of it.

If Spike does play a role later on in this season or he gets more firm references, I'm reserving the right to sing 'Na na na na na naaaaaaaaah'. ;)

Knock yourself out. I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong.

I guess I'm wondering what motivates those who feel this way about Season 8 to read it.

Well, I can't speak for anybody else, but for me, it's that I'd already preordered up to issue #21, so even though I canceled my subscription weeks ago, I still paid for those issues. I'd rather read them and be disappointed than toss them in the trash and not get anything for my money. I haven't decided whether I'll bother obtaining the issues after this. Most likely, I'll read the reviews and see if it improves. Like I said, I would really like to enjoy season 8, and if it takes a turn for the better, I'd be happy to get back on the bandwagon. But right now, I just don't.

If you're equating it to being betrayed, than I don't think I'm able to walk in your shoes and understand it.

I never said the word "betrayal." Betrayal implies that Joss made a promise to me and then broke it. He did no such thing. We've never spoken. However, I, in a one-sided relationship with his product, built up an expectation - trust, if you will - that I would enjoy his products. It turns out that's not the case, and now I'm disappointed. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that.

[rahirah]

I don't think Joss is unaware of the shippers. But I don't think shipping interests him, and I don't think he cares who Buffy ends up with - I think he'd be perfectly happy for her to end up with no one.

But on the other hand, I think he's perfectly aware that shipping sells. So the most logical course for him to pursue is to string the shippers of all camps along for as long as possible without committing to anything.

[rahirah]

And also... I don't hate Joss. I just know from experience that my idea of what a story needs to address and his don't coincide.

I, personally, think that yes, Buffy and Spike's story does demand closure. But I've lost count of the number of times that I thought "Surely they're going to address that. They can't possibly leave that hanging!" and nothing came of it. Didn't address it, and didn't think it needed addressing, and were stunned and surprised to find out that other people did think it needed addressing. So when people talk about the big revelation that must be coming, because the story won't make sense otherwise, yes, I am somewhat cynical.

If that makes me a bad fan in your eyes, I'm sorry. If Joss does give Buffy and Spike some closure, great. If he gives it to them in a way that doesn't leave me wishing I'd never shipped them in the first place, fantastic. I will be surprised and grateful and have no problem saying so. But I don't expect Joss to give me that, or anything approaching that. And I don't think he's in any way obligated to give me that. It's his story; he can tell it as he pleases.

[next_to_normal]

Word to that, too, lol.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

Oh my lord, I so agree!

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

But I've lost count of the number of times that I thought "Surely they're going to address that. They can't possibly leave that hanging!" and nothing came of it. Didn't address it, and didn't think it needed addressing, and were stunned and surprised to find out that other people did think it needed addressing. So when people talk about the big revelation that must be coming, because the story won't make sense otherwise, yes, I am somewhat cynical.

I wonder if the difference in perspective has to do with a split between those who watched the series unfold week by week, and those of us who watched it afterwards in one big Buffyfest. Cause I really can't think of too many dangling threads that have bothered me. Giles/Ripper is one that comes to mind. But because I watched it as a whole, I just don't have the experience of waiting in real time to see what ME does with something -- hence no real experience of disappointment.

Maybe this time, though! AtF did disappoint me -- but that's an argument for another day.

[next_to_normal]

I watched it on DVD in one big Buffyfest (followed by one big Angelfest), but I still feel the same way. I didn't really notice those things so much as I was watching it the first time through, but that was basically a whirlwind of getting the next DVD into the player as fast as possible, needing to know what happened next without stopping to think about what had just happened or what it meant. It wasn't until later, in rewatching episodes and participating in fandom discussions, that I've noticed most of the plot holes and dangling threads.

But as I've said, it doesn't bother me so much on the TV show. There's enough good there than I can gloss over the holes (or fanwank them - discussing them is half the fun) and still be satisfied with the big picture. I'm finding myself unable to do that with the comics. They just don't interest me enough to put that much effort in.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

We pretty much agree on the TV show then. I don't think it's perfect -- but the big picture is really tremendous. And I've just never encountered any TV show that could absorb my attention for as long as this one has, or that could repay close attention the way this one does. So I'm fairly vested in the notion that Joss knows what he's doing, in the sense that if you pay attention the story will be interesting enough and well structured enough to provoke a lot of thought and discussion.

And for me, the comics are repaying close attention. A lot depends on how the season fleshes out as a whole, but rereading them is worthwhile -- and that means that thus far I trust Joss. I've been happy with the resonances. I've been happy with the way things are structured. I think the leap forward in time works very well for what Joss seems to be trying to do. The comics have actively gone to redress some of the problems I did have with the show. For example, it really looks like Willow's rehabilitation and the whole season 6 mash they made out of her story is coming in for reconsideration. The ambiguities of Buffy's interactions with Faith have been dealt with nicely. etc. etc. Now, it could well be that the final product fails. Most importantly, I like the leap in time, but that's with the implied (to me) promise that the important gaps will be filled in. If Joss REALLY doesn't think we need to know WHY Buffy is robbing banks, then y'all are right and I'll be a latecomer to the cynical camp. Maybe even more upset about it because right now, I pretty much totally trust him on this.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

wonder if the difference in perspective has to do with a split between those who watched the series unfold week by week, and those of us who watched it afterwards in one big Buffyfest.

Quite possibly. The time in connection to the blanks is different. Watching as it aired left months to speculate on plot points, and months to deal with the fandom craziness such debates and speculation caused. It no doubt had some influence over reactions.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Cause I really can't think of too many dangling threads that have bothered me.

The first things that come to mind:

In Becoming 1-2 Whistler shows Buffy to Angel and later tells Buffy "Nobody saw you coming". Were PTB planning something sinister or Joss just forgotten what he wrote in a previous episode?

In Choices Buffy decides that Willow's life is more important than the box of Gavrock. As a result many people die during Graduation Day. Nobody ever adresses it afterwards.

In The Gift Giles kills Ben and it's never addressed later.

Fans thought it was important. Joss didn't.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Pretty much, yes.