Spike and Season 8
Jan. 12th, 2009 05:27 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
maggie2
I’m under the impression that a lot of people assume that Spike will certainly not figure in season 8, and that Joss either never was interested in Spike (or Spuffy) or he views that story as settled and is just moving on. Of course, we won’t know until the tale is done, but it does seem to me that it would be very strange if the same writer who knew that Angel marked Buffy for life didn’t think that Spike, who played at least as major a role in Buffy’s story, could vanish from her story without trace. But all I want to argue for here is the proposition that based on what we have seen in the first 21 issues, there is plenty of room for Spike to enter the story, perhaps even in an important way.
Before getting to the text, it’s worth observing that Scott Allie has said (Slayalive Q&A #20, question 4) that Joss has the right to use the characters in Angel as much as he likes. There thus seems to be no contractual reason for Spike to remain offstage. All that will matter is what the story demands.
While I wouldn’t go so far as to argue that the story demands that Spike play a role, there is a fair amount of text at this point that would retrospectively set up his appearance.
1. Buffy is the main character of the series. (Duh). When last we saw her, Spike was arguably the most important person in her world – the one who was in her heart, the one with whom she shared the fiery hands of passion, the one whose name was the last word she spoke in the entire series, the one with whom she spent what could well have been her last night in the world, the one who stood by her when all her other significant folks kicked her out of her own house, etc. etc. etc. The status of Buffy’s relationship with the person who was so very important to her was left hanging at the end of the story. It matters how it is resolved. Really. Angel hung over her story for years. It’s unreasonable to think that Spike vanished without a trace in 18 months, or that the resolution of Buffy's story with Spike is insignficant.
And it’s not like the writers of season 8 are insensible of the fact that romantic story lines from season 7 need to be resolved in season 8. Pretty much the first thing we learn about Faith in #6 is that Robin ended up not surprising her – she’s still very much alone. It took a while, but we finally learn that Xander really did spend some serious time mourning Anya (#13). If Joss really wanted to close off the Spike/Buffy story line, he’d have done so much the way Faith/Robin got closed out. He didn’t.
2. On the contrary, one of the first things Joss tells us about Buffy is that she doesn’t know the significance of the Immortal to either Angel or Spike. It opens the door to the possibility that she does not know that they tried to track her down in TGIQ. Far from closing the story down, Joss offers a tantalizing detail that reminds us that we really don’t know where things stand between Buffy and Spike.
3. There is the mysterious absence of Spike from Buffy’s dream space (#3), where every other significant figure in her life is present. (With the possible exception of Hank). Angel is here, as is Riley. Tara, and Dawn, and Faith, and, Joyce, and all the major villains and the Scoobies. There are cubes from early in Buffy’s life through season 7 (Xander with an eye patch; Caleb). There are three ways I can think of to account for this fact. (a) The scenes and figures drawn were chosen by Jeanty and have no particular significance. But Enisy asked Allie about this, and Allie says that Joss did interact with Jeanty both about what should be there and about what should not be there (Slayalive Q&A #19, question 6). (b) Buffy really doesn’t see Spike as an important person in her life (beyond his usefulness in her erotic fantasies). That defies imagination. Whether it’s the fiery hands of passion or the bathroom scene, Spike has impacted Buffy enormously, both in good ways and in bad ways. (c) The absence is significant in a way that has yet to be revealed.
4. Buffy finally mentions Spike in A Beautiful Sunset sandwiched between Angel and Riley. As already noted, both Angel and Riley figured in her dream space. They’ve also both (now) appeared in the series. Angel in a nod to what lies firmly behind Buffy (#20); and Riley as either a villain or an undercover ally (#19). If two of the three major loves in Buffy’s life deserve a role in the series, it is even stranger that Joss couldn’t be arsed to close out a dangling thread about her most recent romantic involvement.
5. There are plenty of places where one can read resonances with Buffy’s history with Spike, things that could take on different shades if Spike turns out to be part of this story. In the first battle we are shown, Buffy is in a church killing a demon with a cross. The last time we saw Buffy in a church with a demon, the demon was draped on the cross in one of the most arresting images of the entire series. General Voll points to the crater at Sunnydale and says “look what she did to her hometown”. But when Buffy last had anything to say about what caused that crater, her answer was “Spike”. In Buffy’s dream about Xander, she promises to be gentle “this time”, yet knocks off Xander’s head and worries about being dark. There are resonances here with her not-so-gentle relationship with Spike, which was epitomized in the alley scene in Dead Things where she didn’t quite knock his head off. Buffy even says “oh balls” here, which is a line that comes from that scene in DT. Ethan’s entrance into her dream is teased as Spike (we just see his Spike-like clothes at the end of #2) and Buffy explicitly objects to him calling her “pet”. Skipping ahead, and going in less detail: Dracula’s relationship with Xander mirrors in some ways Spike’s relationship with Buffy (evil vampire crossing lines to help the good guys because of love); Willow tells Frey that the most important men in Buffy’s life are lurks (and that that fact makes it too simple to say that Buffy’s life is about eliminating them); and in the most recent issue we have Clem and Harmony allied, the two demons who were friendly with Spike during his time in Sunnydale. None of these allusions or references have to mean anything. But they are available to mean something if Spike turns out to figure in the story.
So we’ll see. It’s true that we’re nearly two years into the comics. But we’re also just over half way through the “season”. And in many of the seasons on Buffy, the real contours of the season aren’t revealed until the second half. It’s too soon to claim that Joss is going to pay no attention to Spike. Indeed, I tend to think that the strange absences and silences point to a larger role rather than a smaller one – since the failure to close out Spike/Buffy quickly seems to demand some sort of pay-off when the story finally is continued.
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Re: Angel...-and Spike
Date: 2009-01-24 07:58 pm (UTC)Spike was used in Season 5 as a mirror for Angel. Angel's disdain for him was exactly because Spike is very threatening to Angel. Spike sought his soul; Angel didn't. (This is huge: Spike isn't wrestling with Spikelus. Angel's whole problem is that Angelus would never, ever, seek a soul -- and that's why Angel is always divided within himself). Spike has actually made the big sacrifice; Angel hasn't. Spike arrives off of big sacrifice when Angel has just sold out to W&H. I love the whole dynamic. Oh, yeah, souled-Spike puts a dent in Angel's "it's all about me" schtick.
Also interesting to the dynamic is that Spike really doesn't see what Angel's problem is with him. And he looks up to Angel. He really does think that Angel has more experience with the champion thing; and in any case Angel will always be the alpha. Spike therefore wants Angel's approval and follows Angel's lead. Ironic because Spike's moral compass is truer than Angel's, and Spike has the big advantage of having fought for his soul as a demon. Of course he snarks about it and rails about it. But mostly because he wants approval that isn't going to be forthcoming because Angel is actually quite jealous.
But they had moved. And this is where I get a disconnect. First, I'm not sure that Lynch understands just how much the contrast with Spike wounds Angel. Second, he doesn't seem to account for the fact that Angel had grown enough to grudgingly accept Spike's status as a champion. The snark had much less edge in the second half of season 5. So when we get dumped into AtF, we find an Angel who is capable of assuming that Spike has fallen off the wagon, or at least of acting like he's assuming that. Now, that could be really interesting if we think of it as a reflection of Angel's massive guilt in the wake of Hell-A. But I never got convinced that Lynch intended us to see it that way. I didn't see where attention was called to Angel's regression on all of this.
And as a Spike-centric soul, I was very disappointed that we didn't follow up on his (and Wesley's) reaction to Drogyn's murder. I wanted to know how Spike would deal with his loyalty to Angel (and his deference to him as an alpha) when he caught a glimpse for himself of the fact that Angel's moral compass was off even when he decided to fight against W&H. At that point room opened up for Spike to start to dope out for himself what it means to be a hero, rather than take his bearings from Angel. And interesting potential dynamic there.
But see, this is where the fact that I don't think Lynch knows how morally muddy Angel really is comes into play. Drogyn just never got mentioned. And Lindsey got written off. The mindwipe bothers no one. I can supply a lot of subtext and make things work. But I really didn't see anything in the text that supports that there's an undercurrent between Spike and Angel over the question of whether Angel is the one with the best understanding of what is or isn't "right". Plenty that Angel might be ineffectual because he doesn't know enough (didn't see that LA could be sent to hell as a response to his actions; didn't see that he was jeopardizing Spike's operation at the mansion). But nothing about his compass being off. Let me know if I missed that. I get that from Angel's POV, Angel wouldn't necessarily see the regression (or the reason for the regression). But I want some way of knowing that the author has distance from that perspective.
Does Illyria really have any essence of Fred? Memories, yes. But Spike said in season 5 that there was no Fred in her. I assume we are to understand his project as giving space for a monster, who has something to work with because of the memories.
(Sidebar: Illyria's possession of Fred's memories are important in shaping our notion that she can be more than just a God-thing. But why are we also supposed to think that the mindwipe didn't matter. Especially when it comes to how we are to understand Connor's present identity.)
Thanks again for this. You are right that Lynch has something to say about these characters. I've registered the places where I think it's off or where I want more. But you let me appreciate more than I did. That's good.
Re: Angel...-and Spike
Date: 2009-01-25 01:08 am (UTC)Buffy, if you remember, did not tell us everything. We were not told what happened when she and Angel met in S6, all we got was fried food and discomfort. And we never got Spike's reaction to what Willow did to Warren or for that matter - Faith and Willow discussing things. Nor was it explained why Xander, Giles, Willow and Dawn would let Faith take over in S7. They leave a lot up to the imagination.
This is a long ass way of telling you that if you are expecting Lindsey or Drogyn to be mentioned again? Don't. The writers feel they've dealt with it in Powerplay and NFA. I strongly get that feeling. Also, I don't think they are necessary - because Angel continues to make the same mistakes, he is still both people even human.
That was the point of Angel becoming human - to show that vampire or not - Angel is who he is. It's what he told Buffy in Amends - it's not the vampire that needs killing, it is the man. She didn't get it, until Enemies, in which Angel played Angelus a bit too well. Fans don't get that, they think Angel is two people -- because in part that is what Angel keeps telling himself. But Angelus won't ever leave.
The difference between Angel and Spike is Spike doesn't see himself as two people. Also the person Spike always struggled with is not the killer or his father/authority figure, but rather weak poet William and his relationship with his mother - who he destroyed attempting to save. Spike tried to save his beloved parent and turned her into a demon that rejected him and wanted to devour. So he staked her. Angel ran from his parent, stole, did everything to hurt him, and came back to eat and torture him and his family. Angel never goes by Liam, he goes by the name his little sister called him before he killed her. Holtz and the Master reminded Angel of his own father and he did everything in his power to best them.
Angel - human or not, soul or not, still has the same problems. Every friend he has - he kills or gets killed. Gun, Fred, Cordeli, and Wes. Heck even Gwen and Connor.
Gun without a soul is actually still a better man than Angelus. He doesn't want to turn people into monsters, he wants to save everyone. He's in a way a reflection of Angel in S5 and Angel now.
Angel's own actions have made things worse. When he locates Spike - he doesn't do it to see if Spike is okay or Illyria is - but to accuse them of killing a demon. Spike and Illyria understandably rip him a new one.
To give him credit - he is trying. He's just so unself-aware. WRH turn him human - partly as punishment and partly to show him that it doesn't matter.
Gunn - I saw - as a condemnation of Angel and Angel's actions. Almost to a point in which I laughed out loud. Except, Gunn is a bit smarter than Angel - due in part to the brain upgrade that he still has - one of the consequences of the mind wipe.
Yes - the consequences are there. Angel is still paying for it. Illyria exists in part because of it. Wes is dead because of it. And Gunn is well where he is because of it. Taking on WRH did not solve the problem.
And the world Angel returns to...is well, not what you may think.
Re: Angel...-and Spike
Date: 2009-01-25 02:57 am (UTC)The other thing along this line was the notion that there's an uber-apocalypse that Angel will someday participate in, whereas season 5 drove us to the understanding that the "real" apocalypse is ordinary human evil. I liked that move. It also served to darken Angel's reaction to it in ways that I thought were very interesting. And I was sorry to see Lynch blast past it.
Now, you are right that nothing has happened that would prevent future writers from taking that stuff more seriously. We've reset to the day Lindsey got executed. It's still allowed to enter into the mix. And the 'verse often left things for quite a while before tapping into them. Also W&H is available to come back and keep being the W&H we know. So for me the good news is that nothing has happened that makes the story irretrievable (except the news that the franchise is being put in the hands of someone we even know less of).
Small note: Angel rushed out to accuse Spike and Illyria of killing humans, not a demon. I still don't know how to make sense of Angel's traverse from twice acknowledging Spike as a true champion to that vile of an accusation. The fact that Lynch still thinks it's dramatically interesting to ask "has he or hasn't he turned" questions of Spike suggests that he doesn't know just how ridiculous that accusation is at that point. I'm Spike-centric. These things don't sit well with me. The interesting questions about Spike at this juncture are not about whether he's going to do the right thing. And since it's really Angel of whom we should ask that question, it's particularly grating. Now, if you could persuade me that Lynch knows just exactly how bass ackwards it is for Angel to assume moral superiority to Spike that'd be cool. But again, I just never saw authorial distance from it. And combined with other stuff Lynch has said it just led me to the view that for Lynch, Spike's certainly underappreciated by Angel, but still has much to learn from the master. I hope that's overstating the problem. I just don't like that I'm not sure. That Spike had no dramatic function in the book besides comic relief doesn't improve my mood on this stuff, though.
The world has changed in interesting ways. I'd really, really love a story that juxtaposes Angel's fame as a Legend with at least his character weakness on that front, and even better with the fact that the truth is considerably darker. And someone with a better imagination than myself could well have even more interesting possibilities. I do like that final move a lot.
One more small note: Lynch's notes have the different reactions about whether to jump or not as being meant to show that Angel is still all about being a champion, but that Spike's first reaction is to hang up his sword. Agree that the text is capable of being read in other ways. But it's one more piece of why I came to mistrust Lynch.
I'm still mistrusting. But in a better position to appreciate what is there. Many, many thanks!!!
Re: Angel...-and Spike
Date: 2009-01-25 04:28 am (UTC)I appreciate your concerns, I've had them myself at times - even during the show.
I used to post on a general fanboard, populated by a lot of Angel-centric fans, who saw Angel as a hero and Spike as either comic relief or well, not a hero. A sort of snarky side-kick. (Those were the nice ones. I won't tell you what the others thought, except that I'm sure you've seen the Robin/Nikki/Spike icon?) So many of the concerns you raise above - were actually interpretations made of the show, of both series.
Spike and Angel's roles as hero have always been rather ambiguous. I don't think the writers will ever tell us exactly what they think - they can't, they'd piss off half the fandom. Remember - there are a few Angel-centric fans out there who do not want to see their favorite character portrayed in a certain light.
Lynch is skirting a delicate line. Angel like Buffy is a tough character to write well, because he's so complicated. Sometimes, it's not clear whether he's a hero or an anti-hero. So in response to your question above and my reading of the comics - I think the writers see Angel as both. He's not that interesting from a writing perspective if he isn't. Also, I think they demonstrate that they think he's both -the murderer of innocents and the hero. Heck - we even see it on the page. Remember that drawing of Angel killing hordes of people? HE does and he doesn't. Just as Gunn does and he doesn't. And Angel's perception regarding Spike and Illyria killing the humans (thanks for the correction by the way, I'd forgotten the specifics of the scene - it was a while ago that I'd read it) - that makes sense. He thought it was Illyria. And..as Spike stated in Destiney, Angel needs to think of Spike in derogatory terms because he wants Spike to be worse than him - Angel is, oddly enough, in competition with Spike - it's a sibling thing.
As for your annoyance about the whole - "has Spike turned evil" or "can we really trust Spike twist"? Sigh. I know what you mean. It got old in S7 Buffy. They've been doing that twist as far back as S2 Buffy, after a while it becomes redundant. I really wish they'd stop already.
That said, I think I understand why they are doing it - Spike is a bit of a wild card character or what I like to call "the trickster". He is opportunistic (I like that about him) and he's brutally pragmatic. He will take the shortest route. Angel is an overthinker and tends to make huge complicated plans. Spike is less predictable, he goes for the punch.
We really don't know what he's going to do. Or what priority he will put first. What Lynch was trying to do - by doing that twist, was to show Spike's soul's effect on him. A lot of fans have troubles seeing the difference between Spike with a soul and without one. I never did. He is different. Without a soul, Spike most likely would not have taken those people with him and Illyria and he would not have saved them. He would have saved Illyria perhaps. Also Spike without a soul would not have been horrified when Illyria killed Jeremy in Spike:After the Fall. Nor would he have offered to train Connor or for that matter asked Connor to help him save people at night. Spike without a soul did what was best for Spike, what Spike enjoyed, he had fun. He was the same person, just without a conscience, he did not care about anyone who did not in some way benefit him. Care may be the wrong word. He did not "think" about them.
TBC, because I'm long-winded.
Re: Angel...-and Spike
Date: 2009-01-25 04:29 am (UTC)Angelus said that to Faith in Orpheus and to Angel. He said - I'm not going away. I'm part of you. I am you. And it's true. Even here. But if you want the writer's to come out and tell you that directly? I'm sorry, they won't. Because then it wouldn't be ambigious and the fan may not continue reading.
I'm not sure it matters what the writer tells you. Sometimes a writer will subconsicously communicate something, he or she isn't aware of. We have no control what others will or won't see in our art. But that is part of the fun of it.
The ending of the comic is eerie. Especially if you keep in mind what happened in Harm's way, and what is happening with Gunn - who desperately wants to just die. Overwhelmed now with guilt for what he's done. It still happened. Just because there was a reset, doesn't mean it didn't happen, that they didn't experience it. Both Illyria and Spike are reeling from their memories of what happened.
As for mistrust? Ah. I have that problem with both the Buffy S8 and the Angel comics. I'm also highly annoyed that there aren't going to be more Spike comics - because they probably undersold. Lynch isn't writing any more any time soon. Because I'm still invested in the character and wanted more of him. I do not trust Whedon to insert him in Buffy or do what I really would like to see - a Drusilla arc. I think there's a lot he could do with Spike and Dru, a lot of territory to explore. But I doubt I'll get it. Instead I get characters in Buffy S8 - that I would have been happy never to have seen again - Warren, Dracula, Amy, Harmony, Andrew...to name a few. And he kills off or briefly discusses characters that I miss - such as Ethan.
I think I know what Whedon is planning on Buffy or his end-game. He wants to tell the tale of how Buffy closed the door on the demons. How she changed the verse for good or ill. Never been sure what he planned on doing with Angel and Spike in regards to it. There's more than one way to go.
On Angel comics - I mistrust the writers there as well. Lynch at least seemed to love all of them. Kelley Armstrong worries me. She's introducing some new characters - and I think we have more than enough already, we don't need more. I can't tell what she thinks of the characters from her interviews. But as I said before, if I don't like it? I'll stop buying it.
Wish I could allay your fears on that front, but I share them myself. Just as I share your frustration with Lorne's arc - I don't think it was handled very well - but Lynch has admitted that he had one too many characters to play with and got a bit lost at times.
Re: Angel...-and Spike
Date: 2009-01-25 08:31 pm (UTC)Interesting spec. In a recent interview Joss said that s9 will be very different. After reading your analysis I think that s9 could feature the society similar to the Alliance in Serenity - the society that tries to achieve peace by neutralizing all aggressive impulses in people.
So far, I read only one work of fiction that tried to explore such situation - Lem's Return from the Stars - and it was a fascinating read.
I wonder if Joss would like to explore the idea further. He was definitely interested in it when he did Serenity.
(oh - and I want to add that your discussion with Maggie was very enriching. Thank you!)
Re: Angel...-and Spike
Date: 2009-01-25 09:30 pm (UTC)In a recent interview Joss said that s9 will be very different. After reading your analysis I think that s9 could feature the society similar to the Alliance in Serenity - the society that tries to achieve peace by neutralizing all aggressive impulses in people.
I hadn't read that interview. But that is very interesting. And yes, I think you are correct - I think that is where Whedon may be going. He's a been a bit obsessed with this theme lately - I see it in what I've been reading about Dollhouse as well.
And I certainly saw it referred to in Fray, although it was more subtly done - how the walling up of the bad bits - only caused them to be repressed and leak out, until Fray had to be called.
I think he is already paving the way for S9 - with Harm's Way and issue 16 of Angel. I also think both Harm's Way and issue 16's ending may be Whedon and his writer's reaction to the popularity of Twilight and True Blood or a snarky swipe at that fandom, as well as at reality shows. But I'm not sure how much attention he pays to those things - I'm guessing quite a bit, because of all of the pop culture references that already appear in his work. But I could be wrong. So what happened in HArm's Way and the reaction people in the comic had to Angel in issue 16 - hit two points, one tongue in cheek and one a serious plot point.
Buffy is in a weird place - is she fighting for the "peace" by neutralizing all aggressive impulsives or is she fighting for what the Serenity team is fighting for? Which is side is she on, and for that matter, which side is Angel and his team on? Angel and his team are clearly on the aggressive side of the fence - they tried the peace and harmony bit with Jasmine and that did not end well, and they tried order with WRH - also did not end well. Not sure about Buffy.
Whedon's stories seem to be focused on the balance between order and chaos, not necessarily good and evil per se. And he seems to feel that you have achieve a balance between the two - go to far one way with order and you get the Alliance (a fascist organization) or everyone dead from boredom. Go too far the other way - and you end up with the world in Hell-LA or the chaos before Buffy sealed the hole in the fabrics of reality in The Gift. It's a recurring theme in his work - I see it as far back as Toy Story and Alien Resurrection (which he wrote but despised the direction of). I find Whedon fascinating, even when he drives me crazy.
Re: Angel...-and Spike
Date: 2009-01-25 09:58 pm (UTC)I think Whedon is concerned with good and evil. It's just that he understands that evil is a seemingly necessary part of the attribute of free will, and he's understandably reluctant to give that up. So it's not so much that he's not interested, as it is that he's interested in the best way of coping with a world where evil seems to be ineradicable.
I think there's a more personal element in the Buffy story he's telling, also. It's something like what happens when a righteous person no longer has a watcher, i.e. anyone she's answerable to? Because the ineradicable evil is also in her, it's bound to bubble up, likely in the pernicious guise of doing good. You see very well how that dynamic works in Angel. But it's always been in Buffy too, more latent, but there. (I'm thinking we're going to swing from seeing the problems with watchers to seeing why they were necessary).
Other stuff in the mix as well. All very interesting.
I agree with Moscow Watcher that the general direction is to align Buffy with the start of Fray. Whedon himself has said that. It's interesting because the last slayer in Fray got rid of all magics and demons; and that's what Twilight is after. So there's going to be some interesting shifting going on.
Re: Angel...-and Spike
Date: 2009-01-25 11:08 pm (UTC)I think it was a major plot point, but at the same time poking fun at and commenting on some pop culture items that the writers most likely have mixed feelings about.
Sort of both. Two birds with one stone, as the saying goes.
So Whedon has more or less validated my opinion that he's trying to align the Buffyverse with Fray? Good to know. I thought I'd read somewhere that he had, but couldn't remember. Thank you.
part 1
Date: 2009-01-25 10:23 pm (UTC)It may sound a bit impertinent - but may I rec you two wonderful reviewers -
I hadn't read that interview.
Joss did a big interview for The Write Environment DVD
http://www.thewriteenvironment.com/shoppingcart/products/The-Write-Environment%3A-Featuring-an-Interview-with-Joss-Whedon.html
Parts of the interview were transcribed by fans - ikafreak did the Spike part
http://icafreak.livejournal.com/267794.html
and enisy did season 9 part
http://community.livejournal.com/newly_legion/99883.html
Re: part 1
Date: 2009-01-27 12:12 am (UTC)I've actually been reading
part 2
Date: 2009-01-25 10:26 pm (UTC)I also think so. I think the "celebrity" twist may be a set-up for a situation in which Buffy, to prevent the end of the world, will have to turn all slayers, including herself, into ordinary humans. Or it will be the consequence of getting rid of all the demons. And season 9 will be about Buffy struggling in a fascist utopia and finally restoring her power.
I'm curious who do you think is Twilight? My guess is Caleb.
It's a recurring theme in his work - I see it as far back as Toy Story and Alien Resurrection (which he wrote but despised the direction of).
Oh, yes, Alien Resurrection. His first attempt to combine a human and a monster in the same person. It was a very interesting experiment, but I think it was doomed by default because two demiurges (and I regard Jeunet as a demiurg) with absolutely different sensibilities can't co-exist in one universe.
I find Whedon fascinating, even when he drives me crazy.
Same here. (I remember reading your articles back in 2000-2003. I didn't know that you follow comics. Today Maggie mentioned your discussion on Dark Horse forum and I rushed to read it.)
Re: part 2
Date: 2009-01-27 12:49 am (UTC)Oh, I like this idea. It's already been established in Wolves At the Gate that this can be done. The only question is - who does it? Buffy? Willow?
Or does Twilight?
But, I'm not sure she survives the closing off of the demons. I have a vague memory of a picture of someone - looks like Buffy, but you can't tell with the art, disappearing into the demon world with the portal sealing behind her. Not a fate I want. So I'm hoping for the version you describe above. Apparently I'm going to have to read the transcriptions of Whedon's interview. The only one I've read so far is the Spike bit.
One of the reasons I'm still reading Buffy - is I'm curious to see how he aligns the Frayverse and Buffy, and what he decides to do with Angel and Spike. Will he have Buffy seal them into the dimension? Will they sacrifice themselves? (a la Marvel Comics). Will she go with them in act of similar sacrifice? Will they all turn human? Will they die first and then she does it?
I do get the impression that he is exploring both here and in Fray that no solution is perfect, they all have dicey consequences.
I'm curious who do you think is Twilight? My guess is Caleb.
I think you may be right. Before Warren came back from the dead, I'd have said, nah, Caleb's gone. But now? Not so much. Also Twilight sounds a lot like Caleb. More so than the other villians from the past.
There's a popular theory online that Twilight is "Harth" from the Frayverse, but I don't see that. Too complicated to set up. I have a sneaking suspicion he's a new character - of course that does not explain the mask.
Some people think he's Xander. But Xander would have to be two places at once, which is a bit difficult to do. Also he's quite a bit bigger than Riley, so unless Xander has grown. Wrong physical type and wrong vocal pattern. Same with Harth - he's bigger than Harth.
Can't be Angel or Spike - for same reason he can't be Xander - would have to be two places at the same time. Also wrong speech pattern.
No, logically? Caleb works best. (I used to think it was Riley - because Twilight fits Riley's speech patterns and height, as well as his issues.
Sort of an extreme version of Riley's whole military initiative drive.
But Whedon chose to make Riley - Twilight's spy or aide or whatever instead.)
It's a recurring theme in his work - I see it as far back as Toy Story and Alien Resurrection (which he wrote but despised the direction of).
It was a very interesting experiment, but I think it was doomed by default because two demiurges (and I regard Jeunet as a demiurg) with absolutely different sensibilities can't co-exist in one universe.
Oooh. That explains a lot. Yes, you are right. Two demiurges cannot occupy the same space without killing each other.
Re: part 2
Date: 2009-01-27 12:50 am (UTC)Oh thank you!
I've read some of your stuff as well - rec'd on petz's lj.
Yep, big comics fan. I have a weakness for super-hero/noir stories, particularly in the comics. Been collecting comics off and on since 1985.
Was a huge X-men fanatic ( something Whedon apparently shares). I'd managed to give up on them in 2001. Then Whedon, damn him, started writing Astonishing X-men and got me picking them up again. I only picked up Whedon's X-men. Stopped - when he stopped writing them. Now he has me reading Buffy, and Lynch got me reading Angel. I was already reading the Spike comics, because...well you know.
I've also read the really good stuff or literary comics - Gaiman, Miller, Alan Moore... and some magna. Buffy reminds me a lot of female Japanese magna comics - which aren't as violent as the male ones, have more nudity, more sex scenes, and are in some ways lighter in tone and art. Jeanty's style fits the same tone as the Magna. I'm wondering if Whedon is attempting to do a female action comic in much the same way? He's not as biting as the Japanese or as X-rated. They get a little more..explicit in their comics than we do. But part of that is more adults read comics over there then over here. It's more mainstream and more accepted for some reason.
Re: part 2
Date: 2009-01-27 02:26 am (UTC)Can't be Angel or Spike - for same reason he can't be Xander - would have to be two places at the same time.
From what I've seen, most people saying "Xander" are more likely to think future!Xander, friend of future!Willow.
And as far as Angel and Spike go, didn't AtF reset the timeline back to the end of Not Fade Away?
None of those would really require Twilight to be in two places at once...
Re: part 2- Why it isn't Xander.
Date: 2009-01-27 05:24 pm (UTC)While personally, I think it would be fascinating if it were Xander - I don't think it works either thematically or as a plot point, nor in the logical framework of the universe Whedon has set up.
First the time travel aspect: Whedon has shown in Time of Your Life that this is VERY difficult. Willow had to find a temporal portal at exactly the right moment, she accidently not deliberately caused Buffy to go through it. And getting it open again, required revisiting the mysterious Saga the snake goddess. It wasn't like she just waived her arms and it happened.
Two - there's no indication whatsoever that Xander is in the future with Willow. If anything there's every indication that he is not. FutureWillow is clearly desperately lonely, somewhat insane, and alone. She lives alone.
No assistant or aid in evidence outside of Harth. And they make a point of telling us she is alone and has been alone for a very long time, centuries.
Hence the insanity. FutureXander being a friend of her's - does not make any sense.
Three - Xander unlike Willow, Andrew, Riley, and Giles - has shown no indication whatsoever of being duplicitious or going that route. You have to dig pretty deep to hunt it. He's talking to Buffy. He gets along beautifully with Buffy. There's no rift there. He doesn't appear to blame Buffy for anything - that has been shown on the page clearly.
Willow - Whedon spent a lot of time and effort both in the comics and onscreen showing a potential slide to the dark side. And has thematic reasons for doing so - the potential dangers of magic.
Riley - Whedon spent a lot of time onscreen showing how dedicated he is to the military and how his head has been played with by Walsh and the military. Also Riley's dislike of magic.
Giles - Whedon has spent a lot of time building on the rift between Buffy and Giles. Also Giles is an authority figure or represents one.
Andrew - we've seen very little of. Has dabbled with magic. And has a shady past. I doubt it is Andrew, but he's more likely than Xander.
And he hits the whole, I want to be a superhero regardless of the cost to everyone else theme - Whedon is into.
Xander?? Sure it would be cool and ironic. But there's no build-up. And it doesn't fit any of the themes. It works better from a plot and thematic standpoint to keep Xander in the role he is in - ordinary man or everyman - the guy who watches or sees things. We are often in his pov in the series.
Also, he's a good guy, who doesn't have to be a superhero. A counter-point to Willow, Angel, Riley, etc.
You have to look at it from three points: 1) is it physically possible, 2) does it make sense from a character perspective and plot perspective - has there been build-up? and 3) does it work within the thematic structure of the narrative? Or does it go against those themes?
Xander would be counter to the themes, because he's in some ways Whedon's stand-in for himself, the guy who is a bit of a feminist, who has no problem with powerful women. And is not magical. Xander is the only character if you think about it - who does not have magic or use it.
Twilight does use magic or something to power himself.
Re: part 2 - Why Twilight isn't Angel or Spike
Date: 2009-01-27 05:46 pm (UTC)Hmmm. For it to be Spike or Angel. One thing has to be established - that they weren't busy elsewhere at the time Buffy was fighting or dealing with Twilight.
For that to work, the following assumptions must be true. And I see no evidence in the comics that they are in any way.
1. That Buffy S8 takes place after NFA.
There's no clear evidence this is true. I haven't read all of Whedon's interviews - but the one's I have, he doesn't say when it takes place, just that it is after S7.
We do however have a few clues in the comics that Buffy S8 may actually be taking place around the second half of Angel S5.
1. Giles and Faith's arc. Until that arc, Giles clearly was in the habit of killing or getting rid of Rogue slayers. And Buffy still does - as seen by both Buffy and Gile's behavior towards Gigi, who by the way is no where near as dangerous and sociopathic as Dana was in Damage.
At the end of the Giles/Faith arc -"No Future for You" - Giles and Faith make a pact to save rogue slayers and rehabilitate them.
Andrew in Damage - demonstrates that he is more than capable of lying to Angel and Spike. Also he talks a lot about Giles in that episode and how Giles is training him. His interaction with Buffy is sparse at best.
This I think clues us in to the fact that Damage took place after No Future for You.
2. Harmonic Divergence - this issue is a major plot changer. Also it is clear before NFA in both the Buffyverse and the Angelverse - people were not aware of the Supernatural. After NFA and what happens to the Angel team they are.
You are assuming the reset included the entire planet. What if it just involved the people in LA? What if time went on without them? When they return there are huge differences. WRH is gone and replaced with a doublemeat palace sign - as if it has been gone for some time. People are addressing Angel as a legend, not the head-honcho of WRH. Harmony - who was a secretary in WRH is in a reality series - or somewhere else about to be in one. But Harmonic Diviregence takes place in Santa Monica, not LA.
So it is more than possible that both are happening at the same time.
Okay, now, since Damage clearly comes after No Future for You - and Twilight showed up as early as The Long Way Home - I'd say it's a bit far-fetched for Angel and Spike to be Twilight - based on that alone.
But, here's futher bits:
1. Angel and Spike are vampires and sort of into magic. Twilight is not a vampire as far as I can tell.
2. There's no clear reason established why Angel or Spike would team up against Buffy. She's the love of their lives.
3. Whedon is loosely involved in plotting ATF and not that invested in the outcome.
So he's not trying to establish either as Twilight - like he established Willow as Darkwillow.
4. Speech mannerisms and phsyique don't fit either character. Twilight sounds more like Caleb.
5. Twilight doesn't have authority issues and gets along with the military. Spike and Angel despise the military and have huge authority issues. Also they already tried that with WRH, been there, done that.
No, it just doesn't work logically within the framework of the narrative.
Too many leaps.
Re: part 2 - Why Twilight isn't Angel or Spike
Date: 2009-01-27 06:59 pm (UTC)First, Joss and/or Allie have said that S8 is something like 18 months after series. And Dawn has leapt to college age (which even at 18 months still has her as a very young collegiate). So S8 is definitely post-NFA. I think that's the whole reason to choose 18 months as the jumping off point. I don't think Giles was in the habit of assassinating rogue slayers prior to NFFY; the whole premise of that arc was that it was a very big deal to take such a step, but necessary in this case. I don't see any reason to think that salvaging problematic slayers wasn't SOP prior to NFFY. Dana isn't rogue per se. She's insane. There are lots of ways to develop the "vampires are real" reveal in S8 with the "we were in hell" developments in LA so that the timelines workout.
So I don't think there's a problem with Spike or Angel as twilight on that count.
How about the absence of plausible thematic? Here's a case for Spike as Twilight:
Twilight didn't have a problem with one slayer. He's responding to problems that cropped up as a result of there being many slayers. And he says it falls to him to do something about it. Spike has a connection to that transforming event. Buffy has the scythe because on her own account he gave her the strength to retrieve it. He was her right-hand man and confidant at the end. So he's a part of what went down. Before S8 started unspooling I thought it would be very cool if the guardians tapped Spike, the slayer of slayers turned good, to be the one to work to offset the inevitable bad repercussions of there beign too many slayers in the world. It would put him in opposition to Buffy in many ways. Anyway, that's available in the Twilight story line, since Twilight is not obviously wrong about the problems with too many slayers.
The statements about knowing the slayer well are also quite consistent with Spike.
But you are right that the speech patterns are off. It makes no sense that Riley of all people would work with Spike. Spike's wonderful, but he's not a leader. And one has the impression that Twilight is tall, and Spike isn't. If this is Spike (which is stretchy in the extreme), it's a future Spike or something like that. A very altered Spike. And maybe he's kept his identity secret from Riley, as well.
Agree that Caleb meets the criteria about the use of the term "girls" throughout Twilight's dialogue with Buffy; he knows that move (though Angel and Spike do as well). But do we have any foundation for Caleb caring about Buffy (as Twilight obviously does)? For him knowing her particularly well? Intimately well, even? And Caleb had a problem with any slayers, where Twilight's issue seems to be too many slayers. It'd take some work to move the cartoonishly black Caleb into the role of the interestingly ambiguous Twilight.
As of now Joss is going to have to close logical/narrative gaps somewhere. Spike is a dark horse. But I can't quite rule him out. I suspect one could make a similar dark horse case for Angel. He meets a lot of the criteria Spike meets with the exception that Angel doesn't actually know the real Buffy all that well, and it's not obvious why it would fall to him (unless that's part of his generic problem with thinking of himself as the major player in all things). The major objection to Angel is that it's hard to see Angel being available for a supporting role in Buffy's story when he's lined up to star in upcoming stories of his own.
Re: Angel...-and Spike
Date: 2009-01-25 10:23 pm (UTC)I agree that ME wants us to see hero and anti-hero at the same time. That's why I love the show. Though at times, reading fan reactions, it's easy to get worried about what the writers were really after. Certainly lots of fans just see Angel as The Hero. My whole thing has been trying to decide whether Lynch is with the writers, or with those fans. And maybe I'm willing at this point to say that he's not with the fans, though he may not yet be all the way to the writers of the series.
We'll see what he does with W&H. That's pretty big. I decided last night that I'm hoping that W&H WANTED Angel to get himself killed, and that he has obliged them. Now they can leave him thinking he's defeated them, and they can find new and better ways to keep him as ensnared as he always was. (They do play him like a violin). Maybe the outbreak of publicity will be an important vehicle for that. A move like that would exonerate Lynch from the charge that his vision of the uber-apocalypse is very lame when compared to the understanding of the apocalypse that the series was working with. Cause if it went like this, the uber-apocalypse vision was just a lie to tempt Angel to forget what he knows about the ineradicable nature of evil.
I disagree with you a bit about Spike. He certainly was a trickster figure (big time) as he streaked through Sunnydale and literally upended everything. But now that he has the soul, one that he fought for, I think his room for being so unpredictable is reduced. He's achieved a kind of unity and it would seem random to undo that enough to make him behave randomly. Not that there aren't stories to tell about him. But not so much about whether there's doubt as to his fundamental commitment to the good. Maybe stories about mistakes he makes about what the good is. Dunno. I expect Whedon to make it clear how Buffy came to be robbing banks, so I don't want to say that a good story teller couldn't get Spike to turn evil again. But I do think it would take some work, and the "will he or won't he" stories really are silly in that context. (I think they are all really meant to play off an audience that tends to misperceive Spike, cause though he's gold, he sure as heck doesn't glitter).
Spike isn't perfect, of course. But the huge struggle is over. I'd say the same about Faith. She's had her fall, and her redemption. I expect her story to be a pretty straight-forward one of a slayer with good instincts but massive lack of self-confidence. It's the title characters who are still in play. Their foils/contrasts have already done their work in making us see how complex the eponymous heroes are. Again with caveats that I haven't the imagination a really good story teller has.
I retain trust in Joss. Not that I think he's perfect. Season 7 really is a mess. Willow-magic-crack-what-a-waste. His feminism is clumsy as hell and interferes with good storytelling from time to time. But I trust him to tell a story worth reading here. Unlike season 7 where he might have been tired, he's gone out of his way to start this project up. I'm assuming there's a reason for it. But Joss could blow it with me. This whole thread started with me basically laying down a gauntlet. I expect him to connect these characters back up with the ones we last saw in The Chosen. He had better be planning on explaining the evolution of BtBR. etc. etc. He just hasn't blown it yet. (I held AtF open for six issues; you might be convincing me to reopen it; season 8 is still open for me.)
Lynch on too many characters: Word. Big word. It's not one character too many. More like at least five.