8.36: The Preview Pages

[maggie2]

So with four days left to go before #36 finally comes out, I figure I'd waste some time pondering the preview pages.  They came out on a pretty crummy day, so I was grumpy when I first read them.  Random thoughts below the cut.

1.  So this is Angel from the future, or at least from 'a' future -- one where 'we' lost the war.  The war in question was in LA, but that may or may not be a purely local deal.  At the end of the preview we find out that future!Angel has some issues with the cheerleader.

The time travel angle has been in play all season long -- at least since #10 when Buffy talked about changing things if she was in a time loop.  Time travel gives me a headache, and I can only hope this is written in a way that doesn't boil down to some "the characters get an infinite number of chances to make things right so nothing really matters" sort of a deal.  The drama of life is that we only get one shot at it (says the woman who wishes she could have a do-over on a daily basis).  

2.  I love that Angel gets smashed by the O.  More call backs to season 2.

3.  DOG shows up.  His first line is "I know I'm a dog.  What a world, right?".  Reminds me of Spike in School Hard talking to Angel about what a world it is where people buy all that Anne Rice stuff.   There are a few other places where DOG sounds Spike-ish.  Fortunately there are places where DOG sounds not at all like Spike.

4. So the world's back the way it was supposed to be.  Fortunatley this is DOG speaking which means we don't necessarily have to assume that we really are playing the "reset and redo as many times as it takes to get it right" game.  The whole idea reminds me of fanfic, much of which is about resetting the game and getting it right.  Which is a perfectly fine and enjoyable game to play -- in fanfic.

5.  Angel pushes the O back into place.  Superpowers already in place then. 

6.  Another joke about balls!  Probably just the usual joke about why dogs lick themselves.  But it'd be cool if DOG turns out to be channeling Saga Vasuki -- a female type would probably be very entertained by the situation.

7.  Mention of Wesley.  Along with Angel's reaction to mention of Buffy makes me think that future!Angel isn't from so very far in (his) future.  The loss of the war rankles, and doesn't seem to be a dim memory.

8.  Angel is twitchy about "chosen".  Immediate reference is that he's twitchy about Buffy, which raises the possiblity that she had something to do with the war that was lost.   DOG asks what they're going to do about that, which Angel takes to be a threatening remark about Buffy.  I'd love it if the subtext here is that Angel is twitchy about who Buffy chose in Chosen, and that's what he ought to do something about.  Probably wishful thinking, since honestly having the first pages be about Angel was disappointing to my Spike-centric self.

9.  DOG is waiting for Angel to feel it.   Could mean Angel's superpowers -- maybe Angel didn't notice he had them when he pushed the O back up.  But this line resonates with FDW waiting for Buffy to feel it -- the weight of her failure.  In this case, Angel could be asked to feel something of how this world has changed.  Dunno.  It's pretty open ended.

There are two possible shoutouts to LOST: DOG looks like Vicent; there's an airplane about to crash.  Certainly the preview reminded me of the un-joy of watching LOST where questions piled up faster than answers were granted.  It's the last arc!  But we knew there had to be some big back story on Angel.  A war weary Angel who has lost everything makes some of Twangel easier to understand.  The cynicism about the inevitable deaths of mortals.  The lack of concern about seeing a world lost (since he's in a world that just got reconstituted after having already been lost).  

My big wish is that DOG be related to Saga Vasuki and/or Willow.  That's a plot line that needs to be joined.  Angel listening to chaos means that the story isn't necessarily selling Angel as the poor hero who just had to become Twilgiht to save the world.  And who knows, maybe they plucked the version of Angel who'd been through the crushing defeat because they knew that was the version that would most easily be their patsy?  Could work.  But time travel and alternative universes need to be employed with care.  Makes me nervous, in a grumpy sort of a way. 

Comments

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

Only real question: Are we seeing the beginning of the Great Twangel Whitewash of 2010? That feels like a very cynical reaction to the preview pages to me, but there you have it. And Twangel already stole the spotlight in what was supposed to be the Riley one-shot, so why should we be surprised that he steals the spotlight from Spike?

If KoC started a "We Hate EEBIL Twangel and Still Think He's EEBIL" Club, I wanna be treasurer.

Anyway, I'm eagerly awaiting wank from the issue dropping. Talking dogs are usually an indicator we're in a Disney movie or Things Are Not Well.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Excellent icon!

They can try to whitewash Angel if they want to. Problem is that in doing so they totally destroy Buffy -- if it takes pages to explain to us that he's really not as bad as he seems, what does that say about Buffy who took all of two lines from Angel to go from trying to stake him to boinking him out of this world?

I'll be surprised if Angel steals the spotlight. Riley isn't a major player; Spike is. Spike has a huge fan base, and you don't make us wait 35 issues for him to show up only to have it be all about Angel. If Spike wasn't to be part of the story line, they should have shuffled him on and off early on and been done with it.

You'll get some of that wank from me on Wednesday, early afternoon Eastern time!

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

if it takes pages to explain to us that he's really not as bad as he seems, what does that say about Buffy who took all of two lines from Angel to go from trying to stake him to boinking him out of this world?

That unlike us, she has supernatural powers of intuition, and understands that Angel is a good man inside without needing to be walked through it step by step? :-)

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

!!! The Bangels would be so proud of you.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

It's nothing to do with shipping. Buffy also understands intinctively that Spike is a good man inside without needing to be walked through it step by step. :-)

She forgave Spike for 'Seeing Red', why shouldn't she forgive Angel for Season 8?

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Because Spike was actually sorry for what he did to the point of getting a soul, and Angel is still all down with the program?

I was funning you about the shipping thing, though! The reason why "Buffy just trusts him" isn't OK is because Buffy shouldn't. At least not on my read of things... since I'm someone who thinks that a guy who thinks it was right to kill Drogyn, order Lindsey's execution, etc. etc. is not someone who ought to be trusted. If she's doing it because she still lurves him, it means she's still got a big blind spot on who Angel actually is. Should we ever geta story where Buffy confronts how dark Angel can be and still lurves him, then I'd go with your story. Absent that, any story about #33-35 that doesn't include Buffy coming to really regret her 'trust' in Angel is a problem for me. It opens up Joss to the critique that he really is no better than Stephanie Meyer.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

a guy who thinks it was right to kill Drogyn, order Lindsey's execution, etc. etc. is not someone who ought to be trusted. If she's doing it because she still lurves him, it means she's still got a big blind spot on who Angel actually is

But Lorne, Wesley, Gunn and Spike knew Angel had done all those things too. Do they also have a big blind spot about Angel, that they still trust and respect him? That they were, in fact, willing to go along with his plan even knowing it probably meant their deaths?

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Really? It took a long time for Buffy to move past what Spike did in SR. And it took Spike making an incredible life-changing act of amends before she truly accepted him back into her life.

Buffy also understands intinctively that Spike is a good man inside without needing to be walked through it step by step. :-)

Again see above by how long it took Buffy to return to accepting Spike. And no, no one led her step by step except the writers who slowly and carefully showed her reemerging trust in Spike step by slow step.

I love how the AR means Spike/Buffy sex was a no-go in Season 7, but Angel putting on a mask and terrorizing Buffy, demoralizing her with the deaths of her followers means OMG THEY SHOULD SPACEFRAK.

Your two examples are not the same. And the glaring differences are exactly why fans are balking. Because of 1) the immediacy of Buffy jumping Angel's glowstick and 2) the lack of action to prove Angel's version (as compared to the actions of Spike fighting and winning back his soul). Buffy forgiving Spike took time and his demonstration of penance--neither of which are evident in #34 when Angel is unmasked and Buffy goes wild and sexcrazy.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

*Shakes head sadly at you*

And here I thought we were close to converting you to the Dark Spuffy Side.

I could make pie? Would you convert if I offered pie?

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

:-)

Like I said to maggie, it's not a shipping issue for me. I think it's likely that Buffy still carries a torch for Angel and always will, but it doesn't mean he's her 'destined true love' or anything like that. Nor does it mean she can't fall in love with anyone else: she can and has. And yes, I thought Buffy/Spike made for more interesting TV to watch than Buffy/Angel. :-)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

she has supernatural powers of intuition, and understands that Angel is a good man inside without needing to be walked through it step by step? :-)

Kinda goes against Buffy not trusting Angel in "Damage". Unless she needs physical contact to be intuitive :)

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Buffy never appeared in 'Damage'. We saw Andrew who was claiming to act on her orders.

I don't know that she'd need physical contact, but even with supernatural Slayer intuition I hardly think it's unreasonable to expect her to have to hear someone speak or look into their eyes in order to judge their character. :-)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Problem is that in doing so they totally destroy Buffy -- if it takes pages to explain to us that he's really not as bad as he seems, what does that say about Buffy who took all of two lines from Angel to go from trying to stake him to boinking him out of this world?

That's the lesser of two evils. Either she instinctively knew he was still good, and the text then works to prove to us he's good with many pages to be more convincing. Or she just boinked a guy thinking he's good when he is in fact an evil son of a bitch sometimes--path to hell has been paved with spacefrakking--up, up and away!

The other option I see that would actually salvage Buffy's character would destroy her dignity and bodily autonomy--that she was overcome by the glow. But recent sane!Angel pages are making this appear questionable.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Saner, rather.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I just don't see the text as saying he was good. There's a lot of explanation about why he's doing what he's doing, but that's not the same thing as saying it's good. We'll see. I was responding to Eilowyn's fear of the big whitewash, but I'll have to get all the way through Last Gleaming before I'll believe that's what's intended. Not only would Buffy have to 'instincitively' know he's good; we'd have to buy a story line where our heroine had to be manipulated into becoming powerless by her all-knowing wonderhoney in order for the world to be saved. We'd have to believe that what you do doesn't matter so long as it gets the right results. We'd have to think that it was reasonable for Angel to want to stay in paradise even though the world was being destroyed.

Like I said, I'd have to see it to believe it.

That leaves the problem of Buffy's choice to boink him. I really don't know what they're going to do with that. It's a no-win situation as far as I can tell. But I'm going to give them a chance to explain it by Last Gleaming.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm not really making an argument for good!Angel here. (Too tired at the moment! My brain wants to feel like mush as I watch The Closer.)

I was just speculating about how the multiple fan explanations play out--they're all bad for Buffy. I don't see a way to positively spin this to give Buffy an "out". I can see an "out" for Angel, but not Buffy. What's worse, they do seem to be devoting a lot of time to Angel to put his actions in perspective right now. Angel's getting attention while Buffy... I have a sinking suspicion it will stand as is for the finale.

But this is my remaining cynicism re: the Twilight arc. I really hate the way that was executed. The way lots of fans hate the way Seeing Red was executed--there's so many levels of DNW for me regarding that story development.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

But this is my remaining cynicism re: the Twilight arc. I really hate the way that was executed. The way lots of fans hate the way Seeing Red was executed--there's so many levels of DNW for me regarding that story development.

Okay. That's it. Consensus says Brad Meltzer should be punched in the face, so my "Spike and Cordy go punch Brad Meltzer in the Face" fic is a go.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

DNW? did not work?

I agree the greatest problem is making sense of Buffy in a way that's not bad for her. Angel can be spun as being in the gray zone Angel usually inhabits. The best I can come up with for Buffy is that she really was in despair and so decided to jump on the fantasy for a moment since all was lost anyway. Then seeing what she's done, she bounces back to do what she can to make it right. But that does require the story line include the thought that she made a mistake (and not just because the world happened to fall apart as a result). I'm not totally pessimistic about this, but not totally optimistic either.

And yeah, execution is a problem. Even more so are Meltzer's interviews, which taken at face value just destroy Buffy's character in my eyes.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Either she instinctively knew he was still good, and the text then works to prove to us he's good with many pages to be more convincing. Or she just boinked a guy thinking he's good when he is in fact an evil son of a bitch sometimes--path to hell has been paved with spacefrakking--up, up and away!

I assumed that it was the glow that made her (and Angel) incredibly horny.

I guess Joss wanted to resolve all Bangel UST, accumulated in the fandom during 10 years. So he came up with Big Spacefrak - but, in order to justify Buffy sleeping with the enemy, he used Glowhypnol, making both Buffy and Angel victims of The Almighty Universe.

It's Buffy's post-coital behavior that bugs me. In #35 she doesn't look affected by glowhypnol - neither visually, nor textually. Yet she accepts Angel's "goodness" without questioning: if Twilight is Angel then he can't be bad. They shouldn't fight whatever he does. She shouldn't question his actions. She seems okay with everything he has done. As soon as Angel is by her side, the only thing that can go wrong is a band of orcs coming over the mountain.

That was the weirdest part of the arc. Really? Orcs? Buffy, this is the (supposed) love of your life, who is responsible for everything bad that happened in your recent life, including death of 200+ slayers! And the only thing that troubles you is that something can interrupt your idyll?

Maybe Meltzer was intentionally writing in the Meyeresque mode to attract Meyer fans, who knows.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

It's Buffy's post-coital behavior that bugs me.

It mostly seems to bug people who believe that Buffy would never sleep with Angel voluntarily. If you accept that she would, then pretty much all the problems go away. :-) She doesn't feel violated and abused after the "glow wears off", because the sex was her idea in the first place. (And yes, I think the idea of "Glowhypnol" is mostly a fanwank by people who can't bear to imagine Buffy having sex with Angel any other way. ;-) )


who is responsible for everything bad that happened in your recent life, including death of 200+ slayers!

But he wasn't. Neither in reality (the deaths would have happened regardless of his intervention, even if you refuse to accept his claim that he prevented many more) nor in Buffy's mind (since she mostly blames herself for 'changing the world' and turning public opinion against her).

I'm not saying Buffy shouldn't demand a more detailed explanation and accounting from him later, and I'd be disappointed if she doesn't make at least one cutting remark: but seriously, Buffy's the kind of person who goes with her instincts and doesn't waste a lot of time in recrimination when there's an apocalypse to prevent.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

It mostly seems to bug people who believe that Buffy would never sleep with Angel voluntarily.

I believe that Buffy would sleep with Angel voluntarily.

I don't believe that Buffy would sleep with Twangel voluntarily.

And yes, I think the idea of "Glowhypnol" is mostly a fanwank by people who can't bear to imagine Buffy having sex with Angel any other way. ;-)

Then how do you explain the glow? As a purely visual gag, Jossian version of Meyeresque sparkling? Or something relevant to the plot? :-)

But he wasn't. Neither in reality (the deaths would have happened regardless of his intervention, even if you refuse to accept his claim that he prevented many more) nor in Buffy's mind (since she mostly blames herself for 'changing the world' and turning public opinion against her).

This is where we radically disagree.

In reality, I think that Angel is responsible for what happened as a result of his actions. So far, Jasmine's logic was inacceptable in Jossverse, and I hope it won't change.

As to what happens in Buffy's mind... I don't know. Meltzer's characters are utterly puzzling to me.

Buffy's the kind of person who goes with her instincts and doesn't waste a lot of time in recrimination when there's an apocalypse to prevent.

I was talking about the first panels, before she finds out that their space-frak caused a demon invasion.

From Buffy's POV, I interpret these panels the following way: "We found Twilight's lair, discovered that he is Angel, so there is nothing to worry about. Angel said he did the right thing - he knows best."

[angearia.livejournal.com]

(And yes, I think the idea of "Glowhypnol" is mostly a fanwank by people who can't bear to imagine Buffy having sex with Angel any other way. ;-)

As a person who's shipped B/A, who actually likes Angel (when he's not being a tool, then I'll call him a tool) and who has posted ad nauseum way more reason for why Buffy not reaming Angel after coming out of the sexphase...

Yeah, way off base and completely dismissive of your opposition's argument. It's not an accurate summary--you've completely misread it. Which makes sense of why we keep disagreeing if this is what you're reading. :D

You're wrong on the internet.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

There are lots of ways I could bear to see Buffy having sex with Angel. He could leave W&H and go to Sunnydale and they could get to know each other in a real way. She could deal with his mistakes and his son. He could figure out who she really is now. Their long standing sexual attraction could kick in. They could even live happily ever after.

Not the story I'd want to see written; but not a story I'd complain about either. It'd be a grown-up story. Not just more Twilight crap, which is what the story threatens to cash out as if it goes the way you seem to think it goes.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

what does that say about Buffy who took all of two lines from Angel to go from trying to stake him to boinking him out of this world?

From what I've seen of the PTB's of the last two arcs, it's inconceivable for them to question Buffy's all-consuming devotion to her high school boyfriend, and to question that she wouldn't jump him five seconds after the opportunity presented itself. I have an extremely low opinion of Meltzer (and a fic in which Cordy and Spike go banging on his door in outrage in the works) precisely because of this and other moments of massive character fail in the Twilight arc, which was the lowest of the low in a comic I already wsn't thinking too highly of (though, like many, I was optimistic up until at least the Retreat arc). But apparently no one thought Buffy's actions through to their logical "WTF just happened?" conclusion because they have Bangel stars in their eyes - and the fandom's massive wave of criticism has resulted, though they could still admittedly bounce back.

Oh, and the icon is moscow_watcher fulfilling a massive kink of mine for resilient and resolute Buffy and Spike side by side.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Meltzer and Jeanty sound that way, it's true. But like I just told Emmie, I'll have to see it carried all the way through to the last issue of Last Gleaming before I believe that's really the story that's being written. I don't think the story right now remotely makes sense if that's what we're supposed to believe. We'll see.