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8.36: The Preview Pages
So with four days left to go before #36 finally comes out, I figure I'd waste some time pondering the preview pages. They came out on a pretty crummy day, so I was grumpy when I first read them. Random thoughts below the cut.
1. So this is Angel from the future, or at least from 'a' future -- one where 'we' lost the war. The war in question was in LA, but that may or may not be a purely local deal. At the end of the preview we find out that future!Angel has some issues with the cheerleader.
The time travel angle has been in play all season long -- at least since #10 when Buffy talked about changing things if she was in a time loop. Time travel gives me a headache, and I can only hope this is written in a way that doesn't boil down to some "the characters get an infinite number of chances to make things right so nothing really matters" sort of a deal. The drama of life is that we only get one shot at it (says the woman who wishes she could have a do-over on a daily basis).
2. I love that Angel gets smashed by the O. More call backs to season 2.
3. DOG shows up. His first line is "I know I'm a dog. What a world, right?". Reminds me of Spike in School Hard talking to Angel about what a world it is where people buy all that Anne Rice stuff. There are a few other places where DOG sounds Spike-ish. Fortunately there are places where DOG sounds not at all like Spike.
4. So the world's back the way it was supposed to be. Fortunatley this is DOG speaking which means we don't necessarily have to assume that we really are playing the "reset and redo as many times as it takes to get it right" game. The whole idea reminds me of fanfic, much of which is about resetting the game and getting it right. Which is a perfectly fine and enjoyable game to play -- in fanfic.
5. Angel pushes the O back into place. Superpowers already in place then.
6. Another joke about balls! Probably just the usual joke about why dogs lick themselves. But it'd be cool if DOG turns out to be channeling Saga Vasuki -- a female type would probably be very entertained by the situation.
7. Mention of Wesley. Along with Angel's reaction to mention of Buffy makes me think that future!Angel isn't from so very far in (his) future. The loss of the war rankles, and doesn't seem to be a dim memory.
8. Angel is twitchy about "chosen". Immediate reference is that he's twitchy about Buffy, which raises the possiblity that she had something to do with the war that was lost. DOG asks what they're going to do about that, which Angel takes to be a threatening remark about Buffy. I'd love it if the subtext here is that Angel is twitchy about who Buffy chose in Chosen, and that's what he ought to do something about. Probably wishful thinking, since honestly having the first pages be about Angel was disappointing to my Spike-centric self.
9. DOG is waiting for Angel to feel it. Could mean Angel's superpowers -- maybe Angel didn't notice he had them when he pushed the O back up. But this line resonates with FDW waiting for Buffy to feel it -- the weight of her failure. In this case, Angel could be asked to feel something of how this world has changed. Dunno. It's pretty open ended.
There are two possible shoutouts to LOST: DOG looks like Vicent; there's an airplane about to crash. Certainly the preview reminded me of the un-joy of watching LOST where questions piled up faster than answers were granted. It's the last arc! But we knew there had to be some big back story on Angel. A war weary Angel who has lost everything makes some of Twangel easier to understand. The cynicism about the inevitable deaths of mortals. The lack of concern about seeing a world lost (since he's in a world that just got reconstituted after having already been lost).
My big wish is that DOG be related to Saga Vasuki and/or Willow. That's a plot line that needs to be joined. Angel listening to chaos means that the story isn't necessarily selling Angel as the poor hero who just had to become Twilgiht to save the world. And who knows, maybe they plucked the version of Angel who'd been through the crushing defeat because they knew that was the version that would most easily be their patsy? Could work. But time travel and alternative universes need to be employed with care. Makes me nervous, in a grumpy sort of a way.
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It mostly seems to bug people who believe that Buffy would never sleep with Angel voluntarily. If you accept that she would, then pretty much all the problems go away. :-) She doesn't feel violated and abused after the "glow wears off", because the sex was her idea in the first place. (And yes, I think the idea of "Glowhypnol" is mostly a fanwank by people who can't bear to imagine Buffy having sex with Angel any other way. ;-) )
who is responsible for everything bad that happened in your recent life, including death of 200+ slayers!
But he wasn't. Neither in reality (the deaths would have happened regardless of his intervention, even if you refuse to accept his claim that he prevented many more) nor in Buffy's mind (since she mostly blames herself for 'changing the world' and turning public opinion against her).
I'm not saying Buffy shouldn't demand a more detailed explanation and accounting from him later, and I'd be disappointed if she doesn't make at least one cutting remark: but seriously, Buffy's the kind of person who goes with her instincts and doesn't waste a lot of time in recrimination when there's an apocalypse to prevent.
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I believe that Buffy would sleep with Angel voluntarily.
I don't believe that Buffy would sleep with Twangel voluntarily.
And yes, I think the idea of "Glowhypnol" is mostly a fanwank by people who can't bear to imagine Buffy having sex with Angel any other way. ;-)
Then how do you explain the glow? As a purely visual gag, Jossian version of Meyeresque sparkling? Or something relevant to the plot? :-)
But he wasn't. Neither in reality (the deaths would have happened regardless of his intervention, even if you refuse to accept his claim that he prevented many more) nor in Buffy's mind (since she mostly blames herself for 'changing the world' and turning public opinion against her).
This is where we radically disagree.
In reality, I think that Angel is responsible for what happened as a result of his actions. So far, Jasmine's logic was inacceptable in Jossverse, and I hope it won't change.
As to what happens in Buffy's mind... I don't know. Meltzer's characters are utterly puzzling to me.
Buffy's the kind of person who goes with her instincts and doesn't waste a lot of time in recrimination when there's an apocalypse to prevent.
I was talking about the first panels, before she finds out that their space-frak caused a demon invasion.
From Buffy's POV, I interpret these panels the following way: "We found Twilight's lair, discovered that he is Angel, so there is nothing to worry about. Angel said he did the right thing - he knows best."
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I have no problem with the idea of the glow making them feel happy, even euphoric; it's the idea that it's somehow overriding their decision-making power that I disagree with. Like you said yourself, Buffy doesn't act afterwards like someone who was coerced into anything. She discovered that being physically close to Angel made her body glow and 'sing', and decided that she wanted to experiment with that rather than flee far away.
"I'm terrified you'll go. You'll leave before we have a chance to explore what this really is, this glow. What if, just once, the right thing to do is also the most wonderful?"
In reality, I think that Angel is responsible for what happened as a result of his actions.
Which appears to be that the bad guys wasted a year in elaborate schemes to "undermine Buffy's moral certainty" rather than just launching an all-out attack on her in issue one, like General Voll originally wanted.
From Buffy's POV, I interpret these panels the following way: "We found Twilight's lair, discovered that he is Angel, so there is nothing to worry about. Angel said he did the right thing - he knows best."
But that's not what happened. She discovered that Twilight is Angel and felt furiously angry and betrayed, not that "there is nothing to worry about". She tried to kill him. She told him to shut up and stop lying to her. She screamed at him, "Why did you put us through this fucking hell for the past year?" - and when does Buffy ever swear like that? She told him to get away from her.
But all the time this was happening, her body was starting to glow in response to his, and Angel was telling her that it wasn't so simple, that there was more going on than she thought. And reluctantly, despite herself, she believed him - because after all, her body really was starting to glow. And she'd somehow acquired superpowers; she could fly, she was almost invulnerable. How? What was going on? Angel seemed to understand more than anyone else, and like I said at the start, Buffy's usually pretty good at working out when someone is on her side or not. When she can trust someone.
Angel might not know "best", but in this particular situation he clearly knows more than Buffy, or Giles, or Willow do. And to quote the commentary from 'Lessons':
DAVID SOLOMON: You know, there's Buffy right there. You see a hole, you jump in it.
JOSS WHEDON: Exactly. I was going to say, I love the rhythm of that. It's just like, "Oh! Oh, a big gaping hole into Hell. Doot!" That's just the definition of a hero.
DAVID SOLOMON: "I'd better jump here."
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Okay. This is not how I see these panels, but maybe it's my shipper's bias. ;-)
Which appears to be that the bad guys wasted a year in elaborate schemes to "undermine Buffy's moral certainty" rather than just launching an all-out attack on her in issue one, like General Voll originally wanted.
See, the problem with this kind of logic is that, eventually, it stands behind all totalitary regimes. Fascists, communists - they all justified killing as a necessity to create a better world.
Angel's goal was to juice Buffy up with power at the expense of lives of 200+ slayers. I quote from the #38 blurb: "he was given a clear mission in regard to Buffy - help her reach the next plane, together create a new world, and end all suffering". As a person who lived in a communist state the first half of my life, I see a direct reference to the communist ideology. That's exactly what communists were telling to peasants and workers in 1917 when they were stirring them up to start a revolution.
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"He was given" ergo this reflects the ideology of the dogmasters but not necessarily Angel's. Riley accepted the mission to place the world over the girl but was still working for the girl. We don't yet know whether there's a distinction between what Angel's would-be masters thought he was doing and what he thought he was doing or whether either of them screwed it up entirely. However, in this instance none of that is particularly relevant because the question is what Buffy thought Angel was doing and the alternative to "I have randomly turned into a good old, evil because I'm evil, tie-metropolis-to-the-tracks, OOC (which everybody criticising this storyline seems to agree on) comic book villain" that Angel gives her is not that he was killing thousands to save billions. He denies that he's killed anyone (as far as we know and certainly as far as Buffy knows that's literally true). He's pointed out that governments and demons were hellbent on slayercide with or without his involvement and claims that while he hasn't been able to stop them, he has diverted them so that far fewer slayers were killed than would have been without him. He's not (at this point) claiming to have killed to create a better world, he's claiming not to have been able to save everyone. The while I push side of the equation hardly seems to register with her it gets lost in the argument that her powers don't come from her dead.
To sum it up, you think that Buffy's mind was completely clear when she stopped attacking Angel. She stopped because she believed Angel when he said that he did it for her own good. She made the decision to have sex with Angel on her own free will, because was happy to leave her worries behind and enjoy herself.
I would phrase it quite differently. Buffy stopped because she believed that Angel had not undergone some random personality transplant and that he had intended if not good then least worst as far as he was able. As had she when she changed the world. Her good seemed less at issue than everyone else's good, she raged sat him for her girl's deaths and putting "us" through hell. She's less self involved than in the days when "nobody messes with my boyfriend" was her sine qua non. She made the decision to kiss Angel and follow where that led not our of heedless hedonism but because there was nothing else she could do for her people. She'd failed them utterly, they were dying because of her. There was a chance Angel was right and if he wasn't she'd got nothing.
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Before #33 i predicted that Buffy would take a "timeout" of her daily (job) worries and actually try out the peaceful existence of (suburban housewife) bliss.
And despite of my intellectual knowledge of this twist in the story it STILL kicked me out of the narrative.
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I make no claim to be any judge of whether a story is being told in a very bad way but the sense I get from your comment that these things can be determined by some kind of fandom committee feels off in some way. I don't know why so many have such a massive disconnect. I don't know what proportion of those who feel that way have actually read the text they feel disconnected from with any great attention. I do know of several who also claim to find comic books and graphic novel a difficult medium to parse out a message from. I also remember similar disconnected responses to seasons 5, 6 and 7 of the TV show. It may come down to fans (and I am one) being passionate about stories and with passion goes a certain "it's either very good or it's horrid."
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Completely clear in the sense that she was in full control of her faculties and able to make decisions freely: yes. She wasn't emotionless and coldly logical, if that's what you mean.
She stopped because she believed Angel when he said that he did it for her own good.
Yes; or at least, she believed that he thought he was doing it for her own good, and therefore his intentions were coming from the right place. As 8.35 shows, she didn't necessarily agree with his decision and certainly wasn't going to go along with it just for his sake.
She made the decision to have sex with Angel on her own free will, because was happy to leave her worries behind and enjoy herself.
Yes, exactly.
As a person who lived in a communist state the first half of my life, I see a direct reference to the communist ideology.
Me too. Do you remember the review I wrote of 8.35? I directly compared Angel's behaviour to either a True Believer in Marxism-Leninism and the Proletarian Revolution, or alternatively to a fundamentalist Christian who believes in the End Times and the Rapture. Both are ideologies that claim that a better world is coming, and that any suffering which might happen in the meantime is a regrettable necessity, but everything will be made better once the Revolution (or Rapture) comes. At least for the chosen ones. The Twilight prophecy is a pretty blatant metaphor for that.
I don't blame you at all for being repelled by Angel's logic, given your experience; but there have been millions of oeple throught ut history, and still today, who believe like he does. And they don't normally think of themselves as evil; most times, they think their opponents are the evil ones for trying to stop the better world from being created.
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If she believed him, then her intuition let her down - because he lied. Deaths of 200+ slayers was part of the plan from the very beginning. It was a necessity to give Buffy superpowers.
If she "believed that he thought he was doing it for her own good" - the situation becomes uncomfortably close to Pete/Debby dynamics in "Beauty and the Beasts".
But I admit, I may be wrong in my assumptions about Buffy being under the influence. It's just my impression.
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That's never been said. Angel's plan was simply to make Buffy feel under pressure and powerless, while doing his best to delay or prevent the plan of his followers to kill all 2,000 Slayers. I don't think his culpability for the 206 that he failed to save is as cut and dried as 99% of fandom seems to assume.
And the Riley one-shot surely established that he didn't think he was doing it for "her own good" - he was doing it to save the world, and regretted what he had to do to her even if he did think she'd benefit from it in the end?
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To quote Giles:
“However much Buffy and Angel might love or miss each other— What Buffy’s experiencing right now—is the pull of something far more ancient—something far more powerful—and far more destructive than anyone on this omniverse has ever felt before.”
And again:
Xander: "I wanna know why Angel dressed like a fetish bad guy and became a killer!"
Giles: "I'm not sure 'killer' is the right word. The power that Twilight has on it's subjects-"
Both these lines more than suggest that both Buffy and Angel are under the 'influence' of Twilight, and that the extends beyond the glow.
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I actually think it's more like 'Where The Wild Things Are'. Riley and Buffy chose willingly to have sex in that episode, but supernatural forces started feeding off the mystical energy they were giving off and wouldn't let them stop. Afterwards, the two of them were embarrassed about what happened because of the side-effects, but didn't feel any angst over the fact that they had sex. Substitute "the universe" for "restless ghosts" and "Angel" for "Riley" and it seems like the same deal here, only on a larger scale.
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Actually, Buffy was pretty unsure about *Riley* when she found out what The Initiative was actually up to, going so far as to protecting Spike - who was helpless, but still unrepentantly evil - against them. And they killed *demons*, not Slayers.
Sorry, I'm blaming the glow, because otherwise... well, let's just say she'd make Bella Swan look like a sensible, self-aware feminist.
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As for picking and choosing evidence: from the angle I'm seeing things, people have already held the trial in absentia, decided Buffy and Angel are guilty and are queuing up to deliver sentence.
I'm trying to argue that things aren't that cut and dried. When 8.36 comes out in a week or so we'll know more, and if Spike gives Willow a counterspell to "undo the effects of the glow" and Buffy and Angel both start acting outraged when they realise they were under its effects, then I'll accept my interpretation was wrong. But if he doesn't, the storyline still makes sense to me without that.
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As a person who's shipped B/A, who actually likes Angel (when he's not being a tool, then I'll call him a tool) and who has posted ad nauseum way more reason for why Buffy not reaming Angel after coming out of the sexphase...
Yeah, way off base and completely dismissive of your opposition's argument. It's not an accurate summary--you've completely misread it. Which makes sense of why we keep disagreeing if this is what you're reading. :D
You're wrong on the internet.
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It happens sometimes. :-)
Further up the thread two different people decided that the only reason I would try to justify Buffy's actions would be if I were a Bangel shipper. They were joking, just as I was joking here (hence the winking smiley). I know there are arguments for why Buffy shouldn't have been so quick to trust Angel, and I've been trying here to provide counter-arguments for why it was in character for her anyway.
But there's also lots of people who mostly just snark at the notion that Buffy would have sex with Angel at all, and this was counter-snakrk aimed at that idea. It wasn't directed at you and if you were offended by it, I apologise. If you weren't offended but just think I'm totally wrong, well then, fair enough. :-)
I said "mostly" because to be honest, I don't often see people making arguments; just dismissive comments and snark. There are exceptions - you're one of them - but my comment wasn't about them. Which is why I added the qualifier "mostly" in the first place.
And I don't think my comment was any more dismissive than Maggie's joke that the only reason I would defend Buffy's action was because I was a Bangel shipper
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Not the story I'd want to see written; but not a story I'd complain about either. It'd be a grown-up story. Not just more Twilight crap, which is what the story threatens to cash out as if it goes the way you seem to think it goes.
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I do not believe Buffy would have sex with Twangel, unless otherwise influenced.
Actually - remember Fred/Gunn and what broke them up? Don't tell me that something like that can bring people *together*.
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Buffy having sex with Angel in 'Twilight' - out of character!
Buffy snogging Angel in 'Chosen' - out of character!
Buffy almost snogging Angel in 'Forever' - out of character!
... and after a while, I start to think that if she ends up getting temporarily snuggly with him practically every time she see the guy, 'Sanctuary' being the one exception... maybe it's actually in character? :-)
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Also there's a difference between the Chosen kiss (where the objection is the fact that she's as good as dating Spike, and people don't like to see her as jumping between them) and the space frakking (where the objection is that he's revealed himself as the Big Bad who's been fighting her for a year). Apples and oranges.
(Does anyone say that seeking comfort in Angel's arms in 'Forever' is OOC? Really? That's bizarre.)
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As for Chosen, I think you're getting your wires crossed. People say Angel was OOC, not Buffy.
Again, the difference between how Buffy acts in Forever and how Buffy acts in Twilight continue to reinforce the point. Buffy's emotional state does not immediately jump to spacefrakking, not even when she's feeling the most intense grief and burden of responsibility.
Buffy is perfectly in character in Chosen. Angel punches Caleb, shows up to help her and she says hello with a kiss. Now instead imagine that Caleb pulls off his fleshmask to reveal Angel underneath--then cue Buffy kissing him with the swooning and the basking. Still in character? I sure hope you don't think that's still the same.
What's baffling to me about your argument is you think that Buffy and Angel merely being in the same room together must lead to Buffy wanting to kiss or have sex with Angel. Huh? Not even want it, but that it's inevitable. In all appearances post-Season 3, whenever Buffy and Angel have reunited it's only immediately (note the emphasis on time) gone to kissing when Buffy has no reason to be angry with Angel and that only happened in Chosen. Forever took a long time to get to the point where Buffy was kissing Angel desperately (how long did they stand silently at the grave just holding hands? How long before Buffy could even work up the will to speak?). IWRY began with Buffy so angry with Angel that they didn't kiss till midway through the episode when he appears miraculously in the sunlight. Sanctuary was fighting. The Yoko Factor was about making peace and not romance. I imagine in the S6/S3 offscreen reunion they kissed, but again it's a miraculous reunion that has no reason for them to be angry with each other.
On the occasions that Buffy is angry with Angel, it doesn't immediately result in kissing (much less balls-to-the-wall spacefrakking). The immediate kissing only happens when they meet in harmony and Angel is there to help her. Buffy was shocked when Angel hit her in the face in Sanctuary. So shocked that she doubted how much he still cared for her. But now Angel can spend months on end hurting her and pushing an agenda that requires Slayers die and she's just okay and wants to make kissey faces?
I really don't understand the Buffy you're talking about. Buffy doesn't immediately dive into kissing Angel no matter what and to say one should read #33/34 and find it all perfectly in order runs counter to what was shown in the show. When Buffy encounters Angel's darkness, she freaks out (see Lie To Me, see Enemies) and runs away from him. She just got hit with a mack truck of Angel darkness in #33/34--behavioral patterns show she should've shut down, felt hurt and betrayed by him and questioned if he still loved her or still had his soul.
She doesn't do the above--all are perfectly natural and expected reactions for her based on how she deals emotionally. This is why people are saying she's not acting in character; and since she's not in character, people are wondering if it's bad writing (Meltzer's execution of Joss' idea) or if there's a textual reason for why she's acting abnormally (glow and the influence of the Universe).
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