maggie2: (Default)
maggie2 ([personal profile] maggie2) wrote2010-08-28 06:37 pm

8.36: The Preview Pages


So with four days left to go before #36 finally comes out, I figure I'd waste some time pondering the preview pages.  They came out on a pretty crummy day, so I was grumpy when I first read them.  Random thoughts below the cut.

1.  So this is Angel from the future, or at least from 'a' future -- one where 'we' lost the war.  The war in question was in LA, but that may or may not be a purely local deal.  At the end of the preview we find out that future!Angel has some issues with the cheerleader.

The time travel angle has been in play all season long -- at least since #10 when Buffy talked about changing things if she was in a time loop.  Time travel gives me a headache, and I can only hope this is written in a way that doesn't boil down to some "the characters get an infinite number of chances to make things right so nothing really matters" sort of a deal.  The drama of life is that we only get one shot at it (says the woman who wishes she could have a do-over on a daily basis).  

2.  I love that Angel gets smashed by the O.  More call backs to season 2.

3.  DOG shows up.  His first line is "I know I'm a dog.  What a world, right?".  Reminds me of Spike in School Hard talking to Angel about what a world it is where people buy all that Anne Rice stuff.   There are a few other places where DOG sounds Spike-ish.  Fortunately there are places where DOG sounds not at all like Spike.

4. So the world's back the way it was supposed to be.  Fortunatley this is DOG speaking which means we don't necessarily have to assume that we really are playing the "reset and redo as many times as it takes to get it right" game.  The whole idea reminds me of fanfic, much of which is about resetting the game and getting it right.  Which is a perfectly fine and enjoyable game to play -- in fanfic.

5.  Angel pushes the O back into place.  Superpowers already in place then. 

6.  Another joke about balls!  Probably just the usual joke about why dogs lick themselves.  But it'd be cool if DOG turns out to be channeling Saga Vasuki -- a female type would probably be very entertained by the situation.

7.  Mention of Wesley.  Along with Angel's reaction to mention of Buffy makes me think that future!Angel isn't from so very far in (his) future.  The loss of the war rankles, and doesn't seem to be a dim memory.

8.  Angel is twitchy about "chosen".  Immediate reference is that he's twitchy about Buffy, which raises the possiblity that she had something to do with the war that was lost.   DOG asks what they're going to do about that, which Angel takes to be a threatening remark about Buffy.  I'd love it if the subtext here is that Angel is twitchy about who Buffy chose in Chosen, and that's what he ought to do something about.  Probably wishful thinking, since honestly having the first pages be about Angel was disappointing to my Spike-centric self.

9.  DOG is waiting for Angel to feel it.   Could mean Angel's superpowers -- maybe Angel didn't notice he had them when he pushed the O back up.  But this line resonates with FDW waiting for Buffy to feel it -- the weight of her failure.  In this case, Angel could be asked to feel something of how this world has changed.  Dunno.  It's pretty open ended.

There are two possible shoutouts to LOST: DOG looks like Vicent; there's an airplane about to crash.  Certainly the preview reminded me of the un-joy of watching LOST where questions piled up faster than answers were granted.  It's the last arc!  But we knew there had to be some big back story on Angel.  A war weary Angel who has lost everything makes some of Twangel easier to understand.  The cynicism about the inevitable deaths of mortals.  The lack of concern about seeing a world lost (since he's in a world that just got reconstituted after having already been lost).  

My big wish is that DOG be related to Saga Vasuki and/or Willow.  That's a plot line that needs to be joined.  Angel listening to chaos means that the story isn't necessarily selling Angel as the poor hero who just had to become Twilgiht to save the world.  And who knows, maybe they plucked the version of Angel who'd been through the crushing defeat because they knew that was the version that would most easily be their patsy?  Could work.  But time travel and alternative universes need to be employed with care.  Makes me nervous, in a grumpy sort of a way. 

[identity profile] eilowyn.livejournal.com 2010-08-28 11:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Only real question: Are we seeing the beginning of the Great Twangel Whitewash of 2010? That feels like a very cynical reaction to the preview pages to me, but there you have it. And Twangel already stole the spotlight in what was supposed to be the Riley one-shot, so why should we be surprised that he steals the spotlight from Spike?

If KoC started a "We Hate EEBIL Twangel and Still Think He's EEBIL" Club, I wanna be treasurer.

Anyway, I'm eagerly awaiting wank from the issue dropping. Talking dogs are usually an indicator we're in a Disney movie or Things Are Not Well.

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2010-08-28 11:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Excellent icon!

They can try to whitewash Angel if they want to. Problem is that in doing so they totally destroy Buffy -- if it takes pages to explain to us that he's really not as bad as he seems, what does that say about Buffy who took all of two lines from Angel to go from trying to stake him to boinking him out of this world?

I'll be surprised if Angel steals the spotlight. Riley isn't a major player; Spike is. Spike has a huge fan base, and you don't make us wait 35 issues for him to show up only to have it be all about Angel. If Spike wasn't to be part of the story line, they should have shuffled him on and off early on and been done with it.

You'll get some of that wank from me on Wednesday, early afternoon Eastern time!

[identity profile] norwie2010.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 12:20 am (UTC)(link)
Maggie, a big "Thank You" for holding up the flag of sanity. :)

As i'm tired (of this strange mess as well as of sleeplessness) i'll just copy&paste what i wrote before:

At this moment in time i think of season 8 as one big meta commentary of BtVS (and stories in general). I cannot make any sense of it otherwise. The DOG/GOD (good call, Elena) licking it's own balls, the "romance" between Buffy and Angel as forced by the writers, the "romance" between Buffy and Xander as no-go area as written by the writers, the slayer spell "unbalancing the world" (the narrative), the powers (writers) messing up the plot, the shout-outs to the superhero genre, etcpp.

Perhaps season 9 will give us back some actual stories - there are enough hints and ideas floating around in season 8 to make compelling (future) stories, but ATM they are all shoved to the background.
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[identity profile] stormwreath.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 12:25 am (UTC)(link)
if it takes pages to explain to us that he's really not as bad as he seems, what does that say about Buffy who took all of two lines from Angel to go from trying to stake him to boinking him out of this world?

That unlike us, she has supernatural powers of intuition, and understands that Angel is a good man inside without needing to be walked through it step by step? :-)

Edited 2010-08-29 00:26 (UTC)

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 12:44 am (UTC)(link)
!!! The Bangels would be so proud of you.

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 12:46 am (UTC)(link)
There is a problem when the only way to make the story work is to read it all as meta! But that is the way that works best, isn't it?
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[identity profile] ubi4soft.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 02:27 am (UTC)(link)
There are some things I'm "twitchy" about in the preview:

* all the Lost references had to be pointed out by the fans who watched the show;

* what's the deal with hitting the O (there are three of them in Hollywood)

* if this is Angel from the future, are they talking 'now'? or this is the real/first time beginning of Angel as Twilight? It doesn't compute very well with the (Tw)Angel - Whistler flash-backs from the Riley one-shot

* Angel's clothes looks similar to those from #35 and is opening the portal another consequence of the space-frakkin?

* being twitchy about Chosen .."It falls to me to avert it"..I don't like it.

* I loved the dog! It's hilarious.

* If there's a Wesley mention I expect a Cordy one too.

I'll be waiting for your full report on the issue. I'll get mine in at least week after the release date in Europe (being training on that with Spike:TDYK)

[identity profile] kerry-220.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 02:58 am (UTC)(link)
So this is Angel from the future, or at least from 'a' future -- one where 'we' lost the war.

Why does it have to be 'the future' Maggie? King's theory of an alternate or pocket dimension works just as well. It would sit better with the IDW universe and, if you consider this is an Angel who at the end of AtF had lost all his friends and Connor then his motivation is all the more. At that point in Hell A they had lost the war and it was still about a year pre S8 (I think)Alternate dimensions like 'The Wish' have been played with. Time folds in IWRY and AtF.

The thing I'm struck by that seems to be little discussion that this Angel is clearly around the bend. He's talking to a dog. In those other pages we saw him talking to a continous voice coming from a bird, jogger and old woman. He's looking out over a city of lights wishing to see just one light. What's with that?

Oooh, and it would make sense if he was the end of AtF Angel who was human{ish}. I can't recall if we've seen Angel vamping as Twilight so it would explain his lack of vampire traits
Edited 2010-08-29 03:06 (UTC)

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 03:12 am (UTC)(link)
Not sure I can quarrel, I'm not sure I have an opinion. I didn't read King's opinion closely. I only read AtF once, IIRC they ended up poofed back to where they started except that there was no war. So I'm not sure what this theory entails? Returning from the head chopping off to some new point where there actually had been a war? If it's a fancy way to get a post-war Angel without the doubling problem, why not? Or maybe in this dimension, Angel really was gone, and this is an Angel being brought in from any other random timeline.

I thought it was generally assumed that Angel is off his nut. He looked that way in #33, and nothing we've seen since says he's not.

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 03:16 am (UTC)(link)
I think a lot of references work that way. I didn't pick up the Ten/Rose image back in NFFY, having only watched Dr. Who since then.

The big O is a reference to orgasm. But it could just be Angel randomly knocking down one of the letters. It's just funny to read it that way.

I assume this preview covers events before Twangel/Whistler in the Riley one shot.

Interesting idea about the portal opening.

I have always wondered about why Angel thinks it falls to him to avert it.

The dog is pretty funny!

It'd be great to get a Cordy mention.

I'll be posting as soon as possible. Don't tell anybody, but I'm taking the day off on Wednesday. Four months of waiting for the first issue with Spike in it? I'm weak.

[identity profile] kerry-220.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 03:39 am (UTC)(link)
Could what happened in Hell be considered "the War"? They had all but lost at that point (pre the flip)

[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 04:03 am (UTC)(link)
Problem is that in doing so they totally destroy Buffy -- if it takes pages to explain to us that he's really not as bad as he seems, what does that say about Buffy who took all of two lines from Angel to go from trying to stake him to boinking him out of this world?

That's the lesser of two evils. Either she instinctively knew he was still good, and the text then works to prove to us he's good with many pages to be more convincing. Or she just boinked a guy thinking he's good when he is in fact an evil son of a bitch sometimes--path to hell has been paved with spacefrakking--up, up and away!

The other option I see that would actually salvage Buffy's character would destroy her dignity and bodily autonomy--that she was overcome by the glow. But recent sane!Angel pages are making this appear questionable.

[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 04:06 am (UTC)(link)
Saner, rather.

[identity profile] eilowyn.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:19 am (UTC)(link)
what does that say about Buffy who took all of two lines from Angel to go from trying to stake him to boinking him out of this world?

From what I've seen of the PTB's of the last two arcs, it's inconceivable for them to question Buffy's all-consuming devotion to her high school boyfriend, and to question that she wouldn't jump him five seconds after the opportunity presented itself. I have an extremely low opinion of Meltzer (and a fic in which Cordy and Spike go banging on his door in outrage in the works) precisely because of this and other moments of massive character fail in the Twilight arc, which was the lowest of the low in a comic I already wsn't thinking too highly of (though, like many, I was optimistic up until at least the Retreat arc). But apparently no one thought Buffy's actions through to their logical "WTF just happened?" conclusion because they have Bangel stars in their eyes - and the fandom's massive wave of criticism has resulted, though they could still admittedly bounce back.

Oh, and the icon is moscow_watcher fulfilling a massive kink of mine for resilient and resolute Buffy and Spike side by side.

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:25 am (UTC)(link)
Could be! I'd like to say we should stay tuned until Wednesday, but given how they keep not answering anything, that might be an overly optimistic response.

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:31 am (UTC)(link)
I just don't see the text as saying he was good. There's a lot of explanation about why he's doing what he's doing, but that's not the same thing as saying it's good. We'll see. I was responding to Eilowyn's fear of the big whitewash, but I'll have to get all the way through Last Gleaming before I'll believe that's what's intended. Not only would Buffy have to 'instincitively' know he's good; we'd have to buy a story line where our heroine had to be manipulated into becoming powerless by her all-knowing wonderhoney in order for the world to be saved. We'd have to believe that what you do doesn't matter so long as it gets the right results. We'd have to think that it was reasonable for Angel to want to stay in paradise even though the world was being destroyed.

Like I said, I'd have to see it to believe it.

That leaves the problem of Buffy's choice to boink him. I really don't know what they're going to do with that. It's a no-win situation as far as I can tell. But I'm going to give them a chance to explain it by Last Gleaming.

[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:36 am (UTC)(link)
Meltzer and Jeanty sound that way, it's true. But like I just told Emmie, I'll have to see it carried all the way through to the last issue of Last Gleaming before I believe that's really the story that's being written. I don't think the story right now remotely makes sense if that's what we're supposed to believe. We'll see.

[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:41 am (UTC)(link)
Well, I'm not really making an argument for good!Angel here. (Too tired at the moment! My brain wants to feel like mush as I watch The Closer.)

I was just speculating about how the multiple fan explanations play out--they're all bad for Buffy. I don't see a way to positively spin this to give Buffy an "out". I can see an "out" for Angel, but not Buffy. What's worse, they do seem to be devoting a lot of time to Angel to put his actions in perspective right now. Angel's getting attention while Buffy... I have a sinking suspicion it will stand as is for the finale.

But this is my remaining cynicism re: the Twilight arc. I really hate the way that was executed. The way lots of fans hate the way Seeing Red was executed--there's so many levels of DNW for me regarding that story development.
Edited 2010-08-29 05:44 (UTC)

[identity profile] eilowyn.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:46 am (UTC)(link)
*Tilts head thoughtfully* Reading the comic as metacommentary . . . that's an interesting take! I kinda like it! And "forced" is the correct way to describe all comic romance (except perhaps Dawn/Xander and Andrew/Watcherdom) because we had nothing from season 7 that foreshadowed any of that crap (and my exceptions are excepted for that reason - Potential showed the special relationship Dawn and Xander had, and anything we saw in AtS showed Andrew in love with his role as Watcher enforcer).

Good reading of what otherwise can be seen as massive narrative fail!

[identity profile] eilowyn.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:49 am (UTC)(link)
*Shakes head sadly at you*

And here I thought we were close to converting you to the Dark Spuffy Side.

I could make pie? Would you convert if I offered pie?

[identity profile] eilowyn.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 05:53 am (UTC)(link)
But this is my remaining cynicism re: the Twilight arc. I really hate the way that was executed. The way lots of fans hate the way Seeing Red was executed--there's so many levels of DNW for me regarding that story development.

Okay. That's it. Consensus says Brad Meltzer should be punched in the face, so my "Spike and Cordy go punch Brad Meltzer in the Face" fic is a go.


[identity profile] 2maggie2.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 06:09 am (UTC)(link)
I want to read it!

[identity profile] eilowyn.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 07:33 am (UTC)(link)
Well, it's now part of an adventure in drunk posting . . .

[identity profile] kerry-220.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 09:03 am (UTC)(link)
Don't you just hate that :) They're doing it over at IDW about the soul issue too!

I just want to put something down here, if you'll forgive my indulgence. There's a conversation at the end of AtF 17 between Angel and Spike that I can't help believing will have some significance in how things play out. Yes, Spike/Angel conversations are my drug of choice, but in this one Spike ponders why W&H have to work so hard to prove Angel will be their player in the Apocalypse to come. I wonder whether 'Twilight' is just another of their attempts. Angel responds with his thoughts about Spike not by a 'prophesied' vampire (another reason the whole fake prophecy thing annoys me) that "No one's going to see you coming." With the introduction of Whistler is that relevant? Is that Spike's role.

Anyway, just some irrelevant speculation - go figure. Wednesday it is......
Edited 2010-08-29 09:04 (UTC)
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[identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com 2010-08-29 09:06 am (UTC)(link)
she has supernatural powers of intuition, and understands that Angel is a good man inside without needing to be walked through it step by step? :-)

Kinda goes against Buffy not trusting Angel in "Damage". Unless she needs physical contact to be intuitive :)

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